Kite Strings

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits

Deltaman - 2012/05/28 07:11:14 UTC

Hi,

anything I see in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaVg_bzK3Aw


is not a cart launching issue but an unexpected AND unjustified weaklink failure.

I wrote about Zapata because what happened is very unusual.

really sorry to refer to the banned monster Tad but :

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=69933#69933

I considered really differently the purpose of a weaklink: it's just a safety device to avoid glider and a good release system overloading, not to protect the (good or bad) pilot as it cannot with certainty and reproducible in any situations and can put you easily in trouble with unexpected failure.

As sailplane we should FIRST consider a release we can actuate at any moment (cart and flight time) with 2 hands on the controlbar (2 points or mouth releases) with few effort at any load encountered.

and use a stronger weaklink.

As a (french) instructor, as a weaklink I used about 1.4G the maximum certified operating weight of the glider, so about 190kg most of the time (220kg on the tug side) with the GetOff 2 points release (JoeStreet release with reliable capacity).

Last 4 days instruction:
No unexpected failure.
Only 1 failure in 90 AT with 12 brand new pilots in the activity when one started to lock out after oscillation and released at the same time than the wl blowed in a no impressive situation.

You shouldn't correlate altitude loss and lockout severity with weak link strength.
You can lock out with few tension (stalled tip in turbulence for example) and die by smashing the ground. Greenspot can nothing for you.
and if you let a lockout continue at altitude (when you normaly should have release), the tension will Increase dramatically and 1.5G wl will break with no much difference.. except maybe for the feeling of the tug but nothing really noticeable and unsafe..

keep you away from unnecessary and costly and unsafe wl failure

Jim Rooney - 2012/05/28 11:49:58 UTC

Guys
Your questions hold the answers.

- WHAT questions, asshole?

- WHAT questions to YOU, asshole?

- Antoine just explained weak link theory and told you he was using weak link ratings consistent with what sailplanes have been doing since the beginning of time and reported pulling off ninety safe solo flights with superior equipment on pilots new to aerotowing all save one of which went to altitude without a problem and an odd one aborted with wide safety margins.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

- And here comes fuckin' Missionary Jim to start telling him how to fix problems he doesn't have 'cause he hasn't been listening to any of you total shitheads.

- So why don't you just shut the fuck up.

What you're writing about and what your seeing are two very different things.
Your theories are what are doing you in.

Sorry Jim, I missed the part where somebody got done in. Can you elaborate a bit?

What you're talking about is coming out of the cart too early and not having enough flying speed.

WHO is talking about coming out of the cart too early and not having enough flying speed? One of the thousands of insane voices that only you can hear?

What you're watching is Davis coming out of the cart at Mach5.

Looked a bit more like Mach 6 to me. But hey... You're the ex spurt.

He is absolutely no where near coming out too slow!

Yeah. He rolls on the cart an ENTIRE FIVE SECONDS!!! My GOD!!! What was he THINKING?! What's wrong with this guy? Oh yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

I've said it before, I'll say it a million times... a 582 tug is NOT the same thing as a 914.
Using 582 techniques on a 914 will put you in the shit.

- Yeah. TOTALLY different ballgame. It just ASTONISHING that USHGA has failed to recognize this issue and deal with it by creating different AT signoffs...

-- AT 582 attainable with a Novice rating.

-- AT 914 for Advanced pilots with five hundred 582 launches no more than half of which may involve a standard aerotow weak link failure under ten feet.

All this "hang onto the cart till it's flying" stuff is fine for 582s. It is NOT for 914s.

Yeah, I always prefer to come off the cart a little slow. The sight of all that runway screaming by me when I have a little reserve of airspeed always scares the crap out of me.

In a word... propwash.

Dickhead.

I'm not kidding.

Nah Jim, I don't think you really need to clarify that point with all the morons you get listening to you.

It amazes me how people underappreciate the propwash.

Let me be the first to say that I've always had the DEEPEST of appreciation for everything you assholes blow our way.

It's an afterthough... a footnote.

If only there were some way people could feel its effects. But they just keep flying through it completely oblivious to the danger it should be presenting.

Let me tell ya guys... on a 914, it's the #1 factor when you leave that damn cart.
You SLAM into that propwash.

And all this time...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11155
Question

Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC

So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.

...I've been thinking it was the single loop of 130 pound Greenspot. Live and learn.

I'm towing out here in the desert at the moment. Out here, like it or not, you get to see the propwash. You see it in a big way. Even when we're towing on the pavement, you get to see it. It sucks and you know exactly where it is... because it's a big old cloud of dust and rocks.

How big are these rocks, Jim? How long before you hafta replace a downtube because it gets too banged up to fly safely?

We insist on our passengers wearing glasses because of it (we provide them if they don't have their own).

Crosswinds of course make a huge difference. But again, we see the propwash... it's clear as day. Sometimes we can even steer around it (that's an other topic though).

- Aw, c'mon Jim. PLEASE tell us how we can use crosswinds and fly around propwash to make our tow launches safer. Think of all the lives you could save.

- Which means that sometimes you CAN'T steer around it. So where are all the fatality reports stemming from gliders that have been flipped upside down by hitting propwash right after they get airborne?

The reason I make such a big deal about the difference between the 582s and the 914s is because behind a 582, you're still on the ground when you hit the propwash. You're rolling on the cart and you roll right on through it. No big deal.

But whenever you get hit by the deadly blast you immediately sing praises to God when the glider shudders violently and you realize what would've happened had you not been locked onto the dolly.

So when you "wait till you're lifting the cart"... you're WELL BEYOND the propwash.
When you exit at Mach5, it's no big deal.

Fuck you and your goddam Mach 5. You're going the same speed the tug is and that's gonna be pretty much the same for the duration of the tow. But you're gonna keep saying Mach 5 till hell freezes over anyway 'cause it makes you feel like Chuck Fuckin' Yeager.

Now, when you do this behind a 914... it's a huge deal.
As I said, you slam into the prop wash.

And you're wondering why you're breaking weaklinks????

No. I stopped wondering why I was breaking weak links when I finally figured out that I was dealing with a long line of total fucking morons which started with Donnell and ran through Bobby, Quest, Currituck, and Ridgely.

Are you kidding me?

Fuck you.

Think about it...

What the hell could some brain dead little shit like you possibly know about THINKING? The only reason you're in this sport is 'cause it's the only branch of aviation so fucking stupid that some moron like you with an IQ in the extremely low double digits can blather anything he feels like and be hailed as a genius.

...you're going a million miles an hour under huge (relatively speaking) line tension as you come blazing out of the cart struggling to "stay down"... as you slam into turbulent air. Hell yes you're going to break weaklinks. That's what they're there for!

Yeah, to override your decision to go hang gliding.

You're subjecting them to massive loadings.
(The shock loading a weaklink sees as you hit the propwash is far greater than people appreciate)
That's why we have them... they're doing their job.

The solution to your problems is first and foremost to realize that a 582 is NOT a 914.
Holding the cart for grim death behind a 914 will make your life considerably harder, not easier.

Yeah, that's what we saw Davis doing. Holding the cart for grim death behind a 914, coming off at a million miles an hour under huge (relatively speaking) line tension as he came blazing out of the cart struggling to stay down as he slammed into turbulent air and subjected his weak link to massive loadings.

Antoine...
- 1.4 times the maximum certified operating weight of the glider
- About 190 kilograms
- 220 kilograms
- 1.5 G weak link
- purpose of a weak link: to avoid glider and a good release system overloading

Rooney...
- Mach5
- slam into the prop wash
- weak links (industry standard)
- a million miles an hour
- massive loadings
- shock loading
- far greater than people appreciate
- purpose of a weak link: to dump you on the runway when you slam into turbulent air

No fuckin' clue as to speeds, forces, tensions strengths, theory. Just pulls stuff out of his ass and gets the cult members to eat it out of his hand.
---
Banned monster Tad:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=69933#69933
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15716
weak links
Tad Eareckson - 2009/04/27 13:45:22 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits

Jim Rooney - 2012/05/28 12:12:51 UTC

Let me expand on what you should be doing rather than just saying "Stop carrying the carts into the air".
Which, BTW... STOP CARRYING THE DAMN CARTS INTO THE AIR!
(You're making your lives hell)

And, as an aerotow professional, that's YOUR job.

If you're on a 582, go for it... just quit doing it behind 914s.

So 914 technique...
Behind a 914, you will accelerate a LOT faster than a 582 (obviously right?)
What this means is that your timing will need to be quicker.
Think of towing behind a 582 as towing in slow motion.

The time between not flying speed and flying speed is a whole lot smaller. This is a good thing.

Not according to one of Donnell Hewett's Twelve Sacred Commandments for Safe Towing:

The transition to and from tow as well as any variations while on tow must be gradual in nature.

BTW, TRY to leave early behind a 914... good freaking luck. I'm sure you might find a way to do it if you really really try... but damn it's a hard thing to accomplish. You'd basically need the assistance of the tug pilot (he'd have to be very slow with the throttle, which no one is).

Can anyone make the slightest sense of that crap?

This also means that the time between "flying speed" and "Mach5" is shorter as well.
Now, behind a 582, the time between "flying speed", "lifting the car" and "Mach5" are worlds apart. You can comfortably wait way past "flying speed" till you get to "lifting the cart" without really worrying about hitting "Mach5". And even if you hit Mach5, it doesn't matter... you'll be in smooth air anyway.

Behind a 914, this is not the case.
"flying speed", "lifting the cart" and "Mach5" are right next to each other.

So using "lifting the cart" to tell you where "flying speed" is... that's just going to get you into trouble.

Aside from blowing your Davis Link, what kind of trouble?

(Holy god how many times have I had to sit back and watch that movie?... it's like freaking Groundhog's Day)

You don't hafta sit back and watch that movie at all, motherfucker. You can do the planet a huge favor and slash your goddam wrists.

What you use behind a 914 is your keel.
It starts with setting your cart up right... which you should be doing anyway (right?!).

With your cart setup right... your keel will lift out of the cart first.
Ladies and gentlemen... even though this is not the case behind a 582... it is behind a 914... you are now AT FLYING SPEED... relax and let the tug pull you out of the cart!

It's going to do so, and it will do it with such authority that you will NEED to pull in immediately.
Now, since you're not going Mach5, pulling in will actually work.
It will reduce the line tension.
This will happen exactly as you hit the prop wash.

Without the high line tension, the shockloading of the propwash won't break your weaklink.

What a load of absolute crap.
- Set the goddam glider on the cart a little nose high.
- Grip the hold-downs while the glider accelerates and trims.
- When you're got sufficient airspeed lose the hold-downs and - just like in a running slope launch - ease the bar out until you're airborne.
- Pull in and wait for the tug to rotate and climb.

It doesn't matter what's pulling you or what it's using for an engine or when the deadly blast of propwash slams into your glider.

- Peak towline tension normally occurs in the first second of acceleration from a dead stop.

- The reason I know that, ASSHOLE, is because I've gone to the trouble - with just about zilch in the way of cooperation from any of you Ridgely motherfuckers - of running the tests.

- Propwash is a total nonissue. Unless the runway surface is dry and dusty you're not even aware of running into it.

- Ridgely used 914s. I tried to come off the cart a little early to save the bastards some retrieval effort, Matthew Graham notoriously stayed on the cart forever. I'm heavy, he's light. And neither of us ever had any issues with prop wash.

Without the high line tension, the shockloading of the propwash won't break your weaklink.

- There is no HIGH line tension. Once the cart is rolling any fluctuations in tension during takeoff are totally dwarfed by what goes on with normal thermal turbulence and normal pitch corrections during the climb.

- NUTHIN'S *EVER* gonna break MY weak link - motherfucker. That's 'cause I use it to protect my glider from being overloaded and not to try to compensate for some Industry Standard piece of junk masquerading as a release.

Now.
Go back and watch Davis's video again.

Why? He comes off the cart after a five second roll in perfectly smooth air and his idiot fucking Davis Link vaporizes. Like we haven't all seen that happen hundreds of times before while we're waiting in line and watching the thermal conditions start going to hell?

Hey Davis... I take it you're one hundred percent on board with your cocksucking little buddy about your blowing your 130 pound Greenspot as a consequence of dragging the cart into the air during a Mach 5 takeoff and slamming into a solid wall of 914 propwash 'cause I haven't heard you utter a single syllable of disagreement of any of that lunatic crap - you cowardly bottom dwelling son of a bitch.
---
2016/04/04 14:10:00 UTC

Link to original thread amended at the top.

Can you post where the original thread is located? A little context would be helpful for us slow folks.

- Oh my...

miguel - 2012/05/23 18:48:46 UTC

Please take it to the Weak Link thread. I will probably never again tow a hg and have no interest in it.

What a strange request.

- When I post these things I go to a lot of effort to GIVE the reader all the context and edit out whatever crap is irrelevant to the crap under discussion. Such is the case with the recent posts in this thread.

- There's a pretty good chance that reading everything in the original with all the context would have an effect opposite from what's desired.

- I'll never fly a tug. But Saturday, for the second time in the space of ten months and three days, a Dragonfly driver died when the plane fell out of the sky. And I think it's worth understanding what's happening and why - even if my own ass isn't on the line.

- Here's the link:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits

- So what's your take on who's making sense and who's totally full of shit?

Take look at the June issue of the USHPA magazine. You'll find thirteen poorly written and confusing pages of weak link mumbo jumbo written by Drs. Lisa Colletti and Tracy Tillman.

Also included in the article- five photos, four bar graphs and eighteen references.

I suspect the article is an attempt to provide flight park operators and USHPA with justification and ammunition in a legal case filed against them.

...thirteen poorly written and confusing pages of weak link mumbo jumbo written by Drs. Lisa Colletti and Tracy Tillman.

Speaking of people totally full of shit.

I'd kill to see those pages. Zack... Do you still have the scanner you used to send me a copy of the victim's manual for the GT Manufacturing / Lookout Mountain Flight Park that isn't warranted as suitable for towing anything?

I suspect the article is an attempt to provide flight park operators and USHPA with justification and ammunition in a legal case filed against them.

What does USHPA ever publish that ISN'T an attempt to provide flight park operators and USHPA with justification and ammunition in a legal case filed against them?

Tad Eareckson wrote:- Oh my...

miguel - 2012/05/23 18:48:46 UTC

Please take it to the Weak Link thread. I will probably never again tow a hg and have no interest in it.

What a strange request.

Different strokes for different folks. Weak link arguments do fit better here than in the landing threads.

Tad wrote:- When I post these things I go to a lot of effort to GIVE the reader all the context and edit out whatever crap is irrelevant to the crap under discussion. Such is the case with the recent posts in this thread.

- There's a pretty good chance that reading everything in the original with all the context would have an effect opposite from what's desired.

I appreciate the effort, and value your opinions, but would like to see the whole thread, warts and all.

Tad wrote:- I'll never fly a tug. But Saturday, for the second time in the space of ten months and three days, a Dragonfly driver died when the plane fell out of the sky. And I think it's worth understanding what's happening and why - even if my own ass isn't on the line.

I really have no interest in towing hgs but a cummie popping spring day at New J could change that. I do think the mouth release is the way to go. I have landed a hg from altitude still attached to the tow rope and truck.

Tad wrote:- Here's the link:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits

Thanks

Tad wrote:- So what what's your take on who's making sense and who's totally full of shit?

it will take me a while to get through all of it and come up with an opinion.

Weak link arguments do fit better here than in the landing threads.

- Amongst rational people there are no more ARGUMENTS about weak links than there are arguments about reflex bridles.

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading and reflex bridles ensure dive recovery. Anybody who goes short or beyond either of those is an idiot.

- I was making no argument about weak links. I was using George's statements about them to discredit your assertion that he's a wise man.

I appreciate the effort...

Thanks.

... and value your opinions...

- In this forum I'm trying to keep opinion down to barely detectable levels.

- I don't want anybody in this sport valuing ANYBODY'S opinion. I want people understanding THEORY. I can and will happily help anyone understand theory - but I want to get to a point of a critical mass which will sustain a core of competence so that I can go away and die without it mattering.

...but would like to see the whole thread...

Fine.

...warts and all.

It's the warts that are almost always the focal points of my monologues and, occasionally, discussions here. It's the and all crap that I tend to toss.

I really have no interest in towing hgs but a cummie popping spring day at New J could change that.

So you have no interest in a particular hang gliding topic unless there's some chance that it will benefit YOU PERSONALLY.

If it's just education that you could use to prevent somebody else from spending the rest of his life in pain, in a wheelchair, or bracing for impact it's not worth the time of day.

Have I got that right?

I do think the mouth release is the way to go.

Or ANYTHING which allows you to blow tow without control compromise.

I have landed a hg from altitude still attached to the tow rope and truck.

Why?

it will take me a while to get through all of it and come up with an opinion.

I'm really hoping you won't. This one's about as black and white as whether or not two plus two equals four and - even without that much math background - it should be pretty easy to identify the morons, liars, and scumbags and the page they're desperately trying to stay on.

Jim Rooney wrote:The reason I make such a big deal about the difference between the 582s and the 914s is because behind a 582, you're still on the ground when you hit the propwash. You're rolling on the cart and you roll right on through it. No big deal.

So when you "wait till you're lifting the cart"... you're WELL BEYOND the propwash.
When you exit at Mach5, it's no big deal.

Now, when you do this behind a 914... it's a huge deal.
As I said, you slam into the prop wash.

And you're wondering why you're breaking weaklinks????
Are you kidding me?

Think about it... you're going a million miles an hour under huge (relatively speaking) line tension as you come blazing out of the cart struggling to "stay down"... as you slam into turbulent air. Hell yes you're going to break weaklinks. That's what they're there for!
You're subjecting them to massive loadings.
(The shock loading a weaklink sees as you hit the propwash is far greater than people appreciate)
That's why we have them... they're doing their job.

The solution to your problems is first and foremost to realize that a 582 is NOT a 914.
Holding the cart for grim death behind a 914 will make your life considerably harder, not easier.

Most everything in the thread had some truth to it. The above does not make sense to me. No one called him on it so I am guessing there must be some truth to this?

I was taught to hold onto the cart until the cart and glider were ready to fly. When the wheels lifted you could either pick the whole cart up or release it and fly away. This ensured that you had adequate airspeed for good control. If the rope broke, you had enough airspeed to land safely. If you broke a weak link in a situation like this, you got a stronger weak link. The few places I have towed, if the link breaks with normal activities, a stronger link is put in.

miguel wrote:I have landed a hg from altitude still attached to the tow rope and truck.

Tad wrote:Why?

The glider had a bicycle handle release. When it came time to release, it would not release and in fighting with it, it came loose on the downtube, rotating around it. Fighting with it put the glider in the beginnings of lockout so I flew the glider. I noticed that the truck had stopped but the reel was free wheeling. I had done step towing before so I flew large circles around the towline and landed into the wind. I kissed the ground and swore never to tow a hg again.

Most everything in the thread had some truth to it.

Yeah.

- In addition to the three total pieces of shit in the discussion:
-- Davis
-- Jim Gaar (Blindrodie)
-- Rooney
we had, in order of appearance:
-- Peter D
-- Brad Gryder (Cloud Hopper)
-- Andrew Stakhov (Macsux)
-- Christopher LeFay / Mavi Gogun
-- Steve Davy (Ridgerodent)
-- Antoine Saraf (Deltaman)

- Total pieces of shit are ALWAYS gonna sprinkle a bit of truth over the crap their trying to get you to swallow. How else are they gonna get you to put it in your mouth?

The above does not make sense to me.

It couldn't possibly make sense to anyone. It's absolute gibberish. It's such a load of crap that one doesn't even know where to begin to debunk it.

No one called him on it so I am guessing there must be some truth to this?

Oh. No one called him on it...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits

Steve Davy - 2012/04/27 01:55:17 UTC

Why did you delete my post?

Davis Straub - 2012/04/27 02:42:02 UTC

Tad's name.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1041
"Sharing" of Hang Gliding Information ?!?

Merlin - 2012/05/26 13:22:30 UTC

I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.

...so - OBVIOUSLY - there must be some truth to it.

There are at least eight people - probably nine - on the Kite Strings Members list who've been attacked; had posts and threads edited, buried, sabotaged, locked down, and deleted; and/or been banned on the Davis and Jack Shows. And you think that the reason that nobody's calling these motherfuckers on anything is because there must be some legitimacy to what they're saying?

I was taught to hold onto the cart...

That's about all you need to know. If you can lift the cart you've probably got more speed than you need but nobody EVER got in trouble putting a plane in the air with more speed than he needed.

If the rope broke...

There is ZERO excuse for having a rope breaking. If there's one or two other things going wrong when a rope breaks you can end up just as dead as you can when a sidewire breaks. Both are one hundred percent preventable.

If you broke a weak link in a situation like this...

You DO NOT FLY with a weak link that can POSSIBLY come anywhere NEAR to breaking in a situation like this. See above. Anybody who flies with a weak link that will break in circumstances in which the glider isn't locking out and flying away from the tug is incompetent and/or negligent.

The few places I have towed, if the link breaks with normal activities, a stronger link is put in.

- You don't fly a glider which holds together in normal operation. You fly a glider which has been certified to hold together when the shit really hits the fan. Ditto with a weak link.

- Still, that shows infinitely more intelligence and common sense than...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

...the Flight Park Mafia assholes will ever exhibit.

The glider had a bicycle handle release.

It was a Wallaby Release. The first time I ever saw one my jaw dropped halfway to my navel and I thought, "WHAT A PIECE OF SHIT!!!"

When it came time to release...

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

YOU CANNOT TRUST THE MOTHERFUCKERS WHO CONTROL THIS SPORT - including/especially the people at Wills Wing.

Fighting with it put the glider in the beginnings of lockout so I flew the glider.

If that had been an aerotow and Mother Nature had put you into into the beginnings of a lockout shortly after launch you WOULD have been killed. And the motherfuckers who put you up on that equipment would've written the fatality report to portray you as an inexperienced tow pilot who made ineffective control movements, tried to save a bad situation instead of getting off at the first sign of trouble, made no attempt to release, and just froze when the situation became critical.

I kissed the ground and swore never to tow a hg again.

What did you do to get that piece of crap...

1996/04/28 - Frank Sauber - 68 - Taylor Farm, King George, Virginia - Chest, massive internal
- Pacific Airwave Formula 144 - Keel, kingpost, leading edges, nose plate, crossbar, battens, downtube, sail
- Novice rating for seven years, in the sport for 17 years but "still low airtime", prior towing experience and a tow signoff for platform

On the first tow a bicycle grip release was used and three tries were required before the glider released.

...grounded before it got somebody like Mike Haas or Roy Messing killed?