Kite Strings

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17603
Some [maybe old] thoughts about Failure to Hook In

Frank Peel - 2010/06/09 23:05:35 UTC

There have been multiple designs published in USHGA magazine (a now defunct periodical). They all had the same issue: they were fallible. They had to be reset after flying, had batteries that could go dead, were overly complex, included fragile parts, etc.

Checklists are mandatory in most forms of aviation. FD and my suggestion is essentially a checklist, albeit one that has been internalized. A good place to start is a written version clipped to your harness. Keep it simple and over time it will become automatic.

If it doesn't, well, Darwin has to eat, too.

- The fundamental problem with these gadgets is that their proposers and developers are all pretty much totally incapable of grasping the concept - let alone implementing the act - of a hook-in check JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH.

- The freakin' launch ramp is no place for checklist. Use the goddam checklist in the setup area for all the preflight issues. When you get on the freakin' ramp you're in launch mode and the only two things you need to be worried about are being connected to the glider and having it properly trimmed THE INSTANT BEFORE YOU LEAVE. And you should've had those two items properly internalized before your first session on the training hill was over.

Robert Seckold - 2010/06/09 23:14:44 UTC
Australia

Here we go...

The reason I use the Aussie method is not because I live in Australia it is because it does not rely on me remembering to hook in.

Or verifying that you're hooked in JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH. Or verifying that that anyone else is hooked in JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH. Or wondering if you nailed your leg loops ten minutes ago. What more could one ask for?

Like you never have to remember to open the car door to go for a drive. You have to open the door to get into the car.

Right after you've assembled it in your driveway then gone back in the garage to for the driver's bucket seat which doesn't fit in the car case.

I never have to remember as I take off is my harness connected to my glider.

Yeah!!! You can ALWAYS just ASSUME that it is! Is that a great system or what!

As I stand on the launch with the glider on my shoulders I never have to remember did I pull on the tension to spread my wings. It is built into my setup procedure, my wing will not physically make it to the launch without the pull back tensioned...although this does not apply to an Airborne topless as demonstrated in a recent youtube adventure.

You get the idea, what I learned when training for the safety officer's job at my power station is you have to build a system that makes it mechanically impossible for someone to hurt themselves. That is why they put cages around machinery that will only work when the cage is down and your hands are away from the press.

The glider WILL and MUST be operable without the harness connected if you wanna do things like move it back up the training hill in a bit of wind, maneuver it through a difficult, dangerous approach to launch, or tie it down while you grab a bite for lunch.

Yes I hear you all screaming at your computers...you can't make anything foolproof, there will always be a way to hurt yourself. You are right there but at least make it that it does not rely on your memory to do the right thing.

I'm smart enough to know I'm way too stupid to EVER rely on my memory. So what always works for me is...

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

...fear.

Whenever you have to remember to do something to keep you safe, there will come a time when you WILL forget.

BULLSHIT.

- I can cite you more Aussie Methodist than you can lift and tugger pooch screws.

- I've never heard a first hand report of a lift and tugger forgetting to do his procedure.

- I NEVER ONCE came anywhere CLOSE to forgetting to lift and tug.

- I've NEVER ONCE forgotten to buckle my seatbelt before the car started rolling. Plenty of times I didn't do it but NEVER because I just forgot.

- Even if someone DOES forget to lift and tug once every thousand launches, for that to be of consequence he's gotta line that pooch screw up with two other pooch screws - failing to both make and preflight the connection.

Which has been proven time and time again in America especially with pilots year after year forgetting to hook in.

- Virtually all of them hang checkers and lapsed Aussie Methodists. And virtually none of them lift and tuggers.

- ALL of them? Even some of these idiot hang checkers manage to complete long careers without ever neglecting to perform their lunatic rituals.

If they are very lucky they walk away to maybe have a chance at using the Aussie method, if not well they never have to remember again.

http://http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21868
Don't Forget your Hang Check!

Eric Hinrichs - 2011/05/13 21:31:06 UTC

I went to Chelan for the Nationals in '95 as a free flyer. They were requiring everyone to use the Australian method, and you were also not allowed to carry a glider without being hooked in.

This was different for me, I hook in and do a full hang check just behind launch right before I go. I was also taught to do a hooked in check right before starting my run, lifting or letting the wind lift the glider to feel the tug of the leg loops.

So I used their method and I'm hooked in, carrying my glider to launch and someone yells "Dust devil!" Everyone around runs for their gliders (most of which are tied down) and I'm left standing alone in the middle of the butte with a huge monster wandering around. I heard later that it was well over three hundred feet tall, and some saw lightning at the top. After that it was clear that no one is going to decide for me or deride me for my own safety methods, someone else's could have easily got me killed.

Hang Gliding on Chelan Butte
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FDJTApk5Hw
tamingthekat - 2010/07/06
dead

02-00007

04-00111

10-00518

20-00727

28-00828

47-01225

54-01511

76-03721


Fuck the Aussie Method. I'll NEVER live long enough to use it or anything else that happens more than two seconds prior to launch to reassure myself that I'm hooked in at the time my foot starts moving.

Frank Peel - 2010/06/09 23:30:15 UTC

And no Aussie has ever launched unhooked? Seems I can remember a few...

Nothing is foolproof. The Aussie method only works if the pilot NEVER unhooks from the glider while wearing the harness. But pilots have, then launched unhooked because they broke procedure. BTW, you do have to remember to hook in. It just comes at a different spot in the process.

Find a method and stick to it. Be ANAL RETENTIVE about it. If you are lucky everything will work out fine.

It's not about luck - I don't DO luck. It's about mindset and hardwiring.

If not, well Darwin...

Robert Seckold - 2010/06/09 23:44:43 UTC

I hear what you are saying but the flaw in your argument is as soon as you unhook your harness you are using the AMERICAN method not the AUSSIE method.

And thus you get to eliminate those incidents from your Sacred Statistics. How convenient.

The Aussie method is you NEVER NEVER NEVER did I say NEVER NEVER NEVER unhook your harness until you have landed and are packing up.

Yeah, if you land in a gust front or the surf you hafta wiggle out of your harness instead of unclipping to keep the mindset of being able to assume that if you're in a harness you're connected to a glider totally impeccable.

If you forget something you climb out of your harness, something I have done many a time to correct something or get something out of my car.

And because YOU'VE done that many a time we can just assume that this is a good strategy to use for EVERYONE - despite plenty of incontrovertible evidence which tells us otherwise.

You are so right that nothing is foolproof, my argument is why incorporate a flaw in your launch procedure in the first place that has the potential to kill you.

You mean like ALWAYS assuming you're hooked in and NEVER verifying your status JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH?

Dave Boggs - 2010/06/10 00:07:04 UTC
Beaumont, California

Never unhook while in it, Never.

Haven't done much dune flying, have you?

Frank Peel - 2010/06/10 00:18:06 UTC

What is happening in your example is a digression from the pilot's regular procedure which is what is being cautioned as the source of failure. Anyway, to my knowledge there is nothing called the "American method". There's the standard way and the Aussie way. So don't blame it on us (or the rest of the world that also chooses the same approach). You're the guys who had to be different!

Oh, I understand how the Aussie method is supposed to work. My point is that people have mental lapses and make mistakes. Even Australians. (I know that hurts, but the pain is only momentary...)

If you forget something you climb out of your harness...

Then you are doing it correctly and are agreeing with my main point. You have a process and stick to it NO MATTER WHAT. Same here. My procedure is a mantra that gets repeated multiple times before each flight. I believe that is also a good thing: repetition. I don't do it and decide it is done. I check and recheck. It increases the chance of finding a mistake before it's a problem.

...why incorporate a flaw in your launch procedure in the first place that has the potential to kill you.

Like unhooking the harness from the glider while using the Aussie method or forgetting to hook in when using the standard approach? Yeah, they will both kill you just as quickly. Like you agreed, nothing is foolproof.

Maybe the answer is that fools shouldn't fly?

In hang gliding? Fat chance. And, in any case, it's the fools who understand that they're fools who make the best students and pilots.

Robert Seckold - 2010/06/10 00:33:58 UTC

I would have as much hope of unhooking my harness and walking over to my car while wearing my harness in a mental lapse as I would have of deciding to smash the window of my car and climb through the window to go for a drive, instead of just opening the door. In an infinite universe it could happen but so far out of the realms of possibility as to be essentially impossible.

And there are simply NO circumstances you can POSSIBLY envision in which it might be a less than stellar idea to either move to launch hooked in or wiggle into a harness at launch position? You're NEVER gonna launch unhooked, Robert, in the environments and circumstances in which you fly but you're NEVER gonna launch in all the environments and circumstances encountered by all the people who participate in this sport around the globe.

Now if my set up procedure required me to REMEMBER to hook my harness to my glider just before I launch, when the adrenaline is pumping and many things are going on...I am just amazed that there are not more pilots launching unhooked.

I don't hafta REMEMBER to hook my harness to my glider JUST BEFORE I LAUNCH. I just always assume that I've FORGOTTEN to and thus a lot of adrenaline gets directed towards making goddam sure I HAVEN'T.

From what I have read on the net, is that it all starts as a convenience in training to save time with pilots climbing in and out of harnesses. The wrong habit is formed from the start and as I said sets up a flaw that has to be remembered for the next 20 years every time you move your glider towards launch and is a fatal flaw.

The fatal flaw that damn near everybody establishes in training is that the pilot can use some idiot procedure in the setup area or the back of the ramp so he can ASSUME he's hooked in at the moment of launch.

gluesniffer - 2010/06/10 00:51:26 UTC

I've gone to the aussie side - and I like it. You don't need to rely on anyone.

And the really cool part is you can assume everyone else is using it so you needn't be bothered to see if anyone else could use an extra pair of eyes at the critical moment.

Dave Boggs - 2010/06/10 01:03:21 UTC

Exactly.
Hook in, hang check, do final walk around, put on harness (this makes me put on leg loops first) do pull through. Good to go.

My harness has far more hang time than I do.

Yep. Good to go. Absolutely *NO* Possibility of ANYTHING happening such that you might find yourself unhooked at the edge of the ramp five minutes down the road.

Frank Peel - 2010/06/10 01:11:22 UTC

Well, it sounds like you guys have it all figured out and don't need the likes of me. I'll be sure to not participate in the future.

Right.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17603
Some [maybe old] thoughts about Failure to Hook In

Alex - 2010/06/10 01:14:24 UTC

I've been flying since 1983 and I've only know one pilot who failed to hook in - he suffered no injury and his glider flew and landed without significant damage.

- Well then, I guess this really isn't that serious an issue for pilots you know.
- Bullshit. If you know five pilots one of them has had an incident.

Most pilots have systems that work very well...

So do most drunk drivers most of the time.

...there are very few incidents of failure to hook in.

There are ZILLIONS of incidents af failure to hook in. It's just that the vast majority of them have such minor consequences that you never hear about them.

Let's concentrate on the problems that cause the most injuries and death: launching and landing.

And do WHAT about them?

gluesniffer - 2010/06/10 01:27:22 UTC

Ah Peel- I always like your input- come back and play.

Paul Edwards - 2010/06/10 01:38:10 UTC
Tennessee

I actually like the idea of #1 and #2. Maybe it's different things work for different personality types.

For what personality type does a check made twenty seconds prior to launch work better than a check made two seconds prior to launch?

I know that I get distracted easily and am not inclined to turn down anything that will help jog my memory regarding flying safely.

I currently do a hang check. Then if I'm waiting I constantly check if I'm still hooked in by leaning forward.

And if you're not waiting you just ignore the requirement and go?

While standing on launch I lift the glider until I can feel the tug on my leg loops. If there's not enough wind to do it for me, I hold the glider with the hang strap taut which I find makes my light wind launches a lot smoother.

Gee, from everything I've been hearing from the people who've never done this it makes the launch intolerably dangerous.

Nice thread! It's nice to hear some fresh thoughts.

- What fresh thoughts?
- How are any of these better than what you just described?

Rolla Manning - 2010/06/10 02:15:07 UTC
Las Vegas

There has been lights and horns on GA aircraft of all kinds and people still land gear up.
I like the KISS method.
I do not get into my harness until I am ready to fly.
When I put my harness on, I grab the carabiniere and hold it in front of me at all times until I am hooked in.
If I have my harness on I do not get more than 10' from the glider. If I decide to go check the winds one more time...the harness comes off.
I do not pick the glider up for any reason with my harness on, until I am hooked in and do a hang check.

And skip the hook-in check because there's no freakin' way you could not be connected using the procedures you do?

RavenHawk - 2010/06/10 02:45:07 UTC
Canada

For me it's easy. When I assemble my glider, my harness gets hooked in and stays hooked in until I pack up. I get in and out of my harness leaving it attached to the glider.

That way, I get to check how it hangs and if everything looks right to me, and, of course I always do a hang check too - just in case.

But God forbid you should do a hook-in check - just in case. Let's not go nuts here.

Works for me (in fact, every time so far!), but my harness is easy to get in and out of. Not sure what other harnesses are like to get on and off while hooked in.

Yeah, keep looking at what's worked for you (every time so far). And keep ignoring the fatality reports in which what's been working for you (every time so far) didn't work for somebody else (just once).

In any case, the hang check is still the single most important thing you can do, and no amount of electronic gadgets can replace that. If you're worried, tape a small checklist to your downtube and don't take off until all items are completed.

Idiot.

Nic Welbourn - 2010/06/10 03:41:42 UTC
Canberra

So they even use the 'Aussie method' in Canadia ;)

Pretty hard for that method to go wrong. I choose this method not because I'm Australian but because it makes sense (even though Australians are not that smart, ha ha). Walking around in your harness seems CRAZY in most situations!

And running off a cliff without verifying your connection status IMMEDIATELY before IS crazy in ALL situations.

The last thing I want to be thinking about on launch is wondering if I'm hooked in... all I want to think about is how I'm gonna launch.

Great!!! Something you have in common with every asshole who's ever taken himself out of the gene pool because of totally backwards priorities.

Rcpilot - 2010/06/10 06:10:02 UTC

I learned to launch with a tight hang strap, now my launches are much stronger and way more in control.

No no no no. Your instruction was critically flawed. You were supposed to be taught that your launches would be much weaker and way more out of control.

A side benefit is that you can't launch with a tight hang strap if you're not hooked in. Works for me.

Actually, the better launch is the side benefit of guaranteeing that you won't plummet to your death just after clearing the ramp.

Hey Alex, notice that this guy is also killing one of your birds with this stone?

Robert Seckold - 2010/06/10 06:36:46 UTC

Not to be argumentative Rcpilot but it is pretty hard to have a tight hang strap in light winds until you are running towards takeoff. Too late then to realise that the hang strap is not tightening as you approach the edge of the hill.

Unless you lift your glider up high enough to tighten the hang strap before you start your launch, which is very hard to do.

OSCAR - 2010/06/10 06:45:33 UTC
Long Beach

I learned to launch with a tight hang strap...

Ditto.

Then...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4JFe7rUCnc


...why the hell weren't you doing it then?

Jaime Perry - 2010/06/10 12:05:05 UTC
Trenton, Georgia

I use the Aussie Method with a Hang Check before getting on the ramp and a lift tug to feel the leg loops before I run off. I think an added benefit of the Aussie Method is that it encourages me to preflight my harness along with the glider before every flight. However it's pretty easy to get in your harness and miss leg loops when using the Aussie Method.

ALWAYS DO A HANG CHECK !!!

- You couldn't POSSIBLY use lift and tug with the Aussie Method. The whole concept of the Aussie Method is to be one hundred percent POSITIVE you're hooked in whenever you're in a harness. Lift and tug is an expression of doubt. Doubt can simply not be tolerated under any circumstances.

- FUCK THE HANG CHECK !!! You were doing pretty good before you got to that line.

Paul Edwards - 2010/06/10 12:17:20 UTC

It isn't very hard to do... I only have to lift the glider about two inches until I feel the strap go taut... maybe it's because I'm tall?

JJ Coté - 2010/06/10 12:53:18 UTC
Lunenburg, Massachusetts

Or maybe wide shoulders? Or something about the way your harness fits? Lifting a glider high enough for me to feel the legs loops is a long way for me (waaay more than two inches), and I physically can't do it, or at least, I can't do it in any kind of safe manner when standing on launch.

You can if you've got wind and/or crew.

Paul Edwards - 2010/06/10 12:58:39 UTC

Interesting... I guess I was just taking it for granted!

Robert Seckold - 2010/06/10 12:59:52 UTC

Thanks Paul, I guess it does depend on your glider and your physical make up. I have not actually tested to see how high I would have to lift my wing but I would guess at least 4-6". This would leave me with virtually no contact between my forearms and the uprights which would make it hard to control my wing.

So just do it for a second and let it back down.

Now if you are talking about any wind above about 12-15 mph I am in base bar takeoff territory with a tight hang strap and an easy launch.

So in any wind above about twelve to fifteen you're as bulletproof as you would be launching off a dolly or platform.

Frank Peel - 2010/06/10 15:46:53 UTC

Try reaching down lower on the control frame to lift the glider. As the workplace safety adage goes, "Lift with your legs, not with your back." Or arms in this case. Reaching lower on the control frame will change where it lays against you and will also allow you to relax your arms and upper back. The weight of the glider will be supported primarily by the hands, so gloves that grip well make it easier. Where the control frame contacts your arms should be nearly the same as it is when launching with loose straps. You may even find that more of the uprights are in contact with your arms which adds to the level of control.

Michael Nester (mrflyn4fun) - 2010/06/10 20:09:32 UTC
North Carolina

Hook In!!!!!

Yes, its a pain in the posterior as well as time consuming...

Yes it is - as well as stupid. Which is why you can't safely implement it on a mass scale - there's a strong incentive for people to cheat.

...but shucking the harness instead of unhooking is the ONLY fail-safe method.

- Bullshit.

- If your chances of missing the leg loops every time you suit up are one in a thousand, what are your chances of missing the leg loops when you suit up twice?

Besides, for me, it's just as easy if not easier to harness up with the harness hanging from the biner.

In all circumstances?

Frank Peel - 2010/06/10 20:17:23 UTC

There is no fail safe method. Simply allowing yourself that mindset writes a recipe for failure.

I've been using the same system for over twenty years with no failures to hook in or anyone catching me not hooked in at launch. That's a good safety record and part of the reason it works is that I don't put complete faith in my procedure.

Always question authority. And whether you are hooked in before launching.

PRECISELY.

gluesniffer - 2010/06/10 21:13:26 UTC

Lifting a kite to launch works however it nullifies the light handed approach to flying.

For how many steps into the launch run?

It is hard to feel the subtle pressures and hard to relax when your lifting 50 to 100 lbs with your arms.

Not as hard as it is when you're trying to support a couple of hundred pounds of hook-in weight while dangling from the basetube and flying a three to one glide slope.

If the glider does not want to fly when standing, it will fly quickly with loose hands and a good launch technique.

It is all about the light touch, we can't see the air, so we must feel it.

Makes one really wonder how people who start their flights sitting in enclosed cockpits ever manage to survive more than two or three takeoffs.

Robert Seckold - 2010/06/10 22:24:58 UTC

I guess we must be built differently because if I grab my down tubes any lower than I am now in light winds my shoulders are not wide enough for me to hold the glider with any level of control, especially for pitch control. Without the leverage from my shoulders there is no way I can keep my nose down.

Then just do a walk-through just before you pick up the glider when there's not enough air to float it. If there's not enough air to float it you probably won't be spending a lot of time on the ramp waiting for a lull and that check will probably be reasonably close to launch.

By the way just a note regarding you launching for twenty years without a hitch regarding hooking in. One of the members here who now uses the Aussie method took 17 years before his memory failed him and he launched unhooked.

- And one of you Reverse Coriolis Effect Zombies who spends his entire flying career conditioning himself to assume that he's connected to a glider any time he's in a harness...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?

William Olive - 2010/01/28 04:50:53 UTC

Phil Beck did this twice (or was that three times?) in a day at Hexham (Victoria) one time while foot launch aerotow testing gliders. Of course, with a swag of gliders to test fly, Phil would unclip from the glider he'd just landed, then clip into the next one to be tested.

Except, at least twice, he didn't clip in.

...tried to launch unhooked at least twice in one day. And even after the first time nobody had clued in enough to start looking for the problem.

- And did this bozo who launched unhooked after seventeen years ever once do a hook-in check before or after the incident? Just kidding.

I say again why compensate for a flaw in a launch procedure for twenty years or more when you can just change the procedure.

That's the problem, Robert. You have ABSOLUTELY *NOTHING* in your *LAUNCH* PROCEDURE to protect you from leaving the ramp without your glider. You have ALL of your eggs in the setup/preflight basket.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=94924
In flight harness issue

Ridgerodent - 2011/01/22 08:40:31

Always do a hang check. Not just for the obvious reasons but also to set a good example to others.

Idiot !

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!

Carm Moreno - 2009/08/26 15:36:06
Bay Area

From someone who does a lot of self launching. When I go to other places it includes this weekend at Hull. I still like to preform my own checks. I was asked if I want a hang check and I declined. BUT then I will walk through to prove yes I am hooked in. I just do not feel like I need to lay down. Good bad that is what I do.

After I thought about it I was probably not setting a 'good example' to a young pilot. I apologize for that. I will explain why I decline a check the next time. He did see me check my lines, leg loops, clips, parachutes pin and helmet strap.

I will not hesistate to ask if someone else wants a hangcheck then I will do the same checks I do for my self.

Watch out for each other whenever possible.

Go ahead and ask if I want a hang check I really do appreciate it.

Continue your discussion on what method is best.

Carm
H4 (started 1987)

I had the key in the fall of 1980 shortly after I started teaching at Kitty Hawk Kites and stopped doing hang checks on the dunes. But I continued teaching hang checks 'cause I thought I was cheating and hang checks were what we taught.

The rating requirement revision which mandated a non hang check hook-in check JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH was announced in 1981/05 and I thought "Cool! I'm already doing that with my lift and tug! But when I worked again as a KHK instructor for a very long 1982 season I continued teaching hang checks - minus hook-in checks - 'cause hang checks - minus hook-in checks - were what we taught.

(The good news is that only about one out of a thousand KHK customer ever touches a hang glider again after getting his five hops so he can say he did it, so, looking at the statistics, it's unlikely that I directly contributed to anyone's death.)

After Bille Floyd got trashed - 2007/10/18 - I got on a jihad about using a speed link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8322255878/


instead of a carabiner...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8321197179/


...for connection because:

- since it's more of a hassle to connect and disconnect than a carabiner it would encourage people to connect harnesses first and crawl out of them to get the cell phone out of the car; and

- it's lighter, cheaper, better piece of hardware for the job anyway - unless you're doing a lot of training hill hops (where the consequences of failing to hook in are only likely to be embarrassing).

It wasn't a bit over a month after Kunio was killed - 2008/08/30 - that I figured out that the way to think about the failure to hook in issue was perfectly analogous to the loaded gun issue and that's how it needed to be thought of, taught, addressed. In other words it took 28 years to be able to fully intellectually understand and express the key I had had by the time I got about 75 dune hops under my belt.

But as far as I know, Steve Kinsley was the first person to recognize that the goddam hang check - and/or any other idiot procedure one uses to reassure himself that he's hooked in prior to the beginning of the launch procedure increases the probability of something ugly happening.

Steve Kinsley - 1998/05/01 01:16

Re: Screwed the pooch

So Marc thinks the Australian method will forever ban human error and stupidity. I suspect that 80% of the flying community would have unhooked to fix the radio problem instead of getting out of the harness entirely. It is easier. And there you are back in the soup.

"With EACH flight, demonstrates method of establishing that pilot is hooked in JUST PRIOR to launch." Emphasis in original.- USHGA Novice through Advanced requirement.

I know of only three people who actually do this. I am one of them. I am sure there are more but not a lot more. Instead we appear to favor ever more complex (and irrelevant) hang checks or schemes like Marc advocates that possibly increase rather than decrease the risk of hook in failure.

Always do a hang check. Not just for the obvious reasons but also to set a good example to others.

I did my last foot launch at Woodstock on 2005/10/15 in a strong, smooth evening wind - two weeks after Bill Priday was killed at Whitwell. You shoulda seen how intensely focused on my suspension Matthew and Karen were at launch when I replied "No, I don't do hang checks."

"Are you SURE hooked in?"

"Yeah. My suspension's tight as a drum and I'm feeling it at my leg loops. I'm practically flying now."

Idiot !

Self proclaimed idiots are the people least likely to launch unhooked and who otherwise make the best pilots and students. It's the folk with excellent understandings of Navier-Stokes equations and are great at remembering what they did thirty seconds ago who you really hafta watch out for.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17603
Some [maybe old] thoughts about Failure to Hook In

Jake 526 - 2010/06/10 22:25:03 UTC
Atlanta

I like number 1!

That's a really good idea and is probably the easiest to do as it requires about five minutes of work for a few years worth of flying. It doesn't replace any other precautions...just an added benefit.

Time to find some highly visible paint.

As a side note, it's my opinion that launching with a tight strap is only beneficial if the winds are smooth (a coastal site).

- The degree to which launching with a tight strap is beneficial is partially dependent upon the degree to which your carabiner is connected to it.

- So at inland sites the wind is never smooth enough to let the strap tighten for a second or two? I'm not sure I've ever seen it that bad in any conditions any halfway sane person would wanna fly in - ANYWHERE.

- Nobody's saying you hafta LAUNCH with a tight strap. Just tighten it for a second or two a second or two BEFORE you launch.

Put a pilot on a switchy or gusty day and they are only going to lose control of their glider because their shoulders aren't in contact with the downtubes.

If he has people in contact with his sidewires - which he probably should and will on a switchy or gusty day - it doesn't really matter much whether or not his shoulders are in contact with the goddam downtubes.

I've tried it and believe it's more dangerous than beneficial in the type of flying I do.

Yeah, the vast majority of the time it's gonna be of no appreciable benefit whatsoever - in whatever the hell type of flying you do.

Maybe other pilots in my area may disagree, but I really don't know anyone that consistently launches like that around here.

- In your area I hardly know anyone who tow launches with a bent pin release on at least one shoulder and a loop of 130 pound Greenspot for a weak link.

- The people you know in your area all have something in common - they're all still alive. You need to think about some of the ones who aren't and speculate about whether or not they'd consistently launch like that if they had the chance to do things over.

Frank Peel - 2010/06/10 22:59:09 UTC
San Jose

I'm a tad more than 6'1" and a pretty solid 200+ pounds. I've seen smaller framed / shorter limbed people struggle with what I view as proper launch technique. It's one area where each individual has to find what works best for them since one size really doesn't fit all.

What you keep saying is you're right and I'm wrong. I know of "Aussie method" users who have launched unhooked and you confirmed it has happened. So we have agreed that no method is infallible. What works is finding a process that works and sticking to it like glue.

You don't find a process that "works". ANY process will "work" about 99.9 percent of the time. Driving without a seatbelt from age sixteen to ninety will "work" for most people. You look at the record of processes which haven't worked and think of scenarios in which they won't. And there is no record of a hook-in check made routinely as close to launch as possible making a launch more dangerous. And there's also no record of anyone who routinely made hook-in checks as close to launch as possible getting seriously fucked up as a consequence of running off the cliff without his glider.

Rcpilot - 2010/06/10 23:37:20 UTC

I don't hook in until I'm at launch. Here is why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwoE6IFeJ94
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwoE6IFeJ94[/video]

Alan Deikman - 2010/06/10 23:42:59 UTC
Fremont, California

A while back I was sitting in a meeting that was going on forever and to keep from going insane I sketched a design of a FTHI preventer device with the following constraints:

1. Light weight - does not add drag.
2. Low cost - not more than $10 of parts.
3. Operator insensitive - requires no new operator procedure.
4. No electronics or other consumables that could wear out and cause failure.

I convinced myself it could be done and that there would be plenty of areas where someone smarter than myself could improve it. Then I decided not to show it to anybody or pursue a patent because, ultimately, I felt it would not be good for pilot safety because such a device would undermine the need for pilot discipline.

Both the Hook-Check-Before-Launch (not hang check) and the Oz method both rely on pilot discipline. Take that away and they become significantly ineffective.

The Aussie Method relies on a mixture of discipline and stupidity and assumptions that there can be no dangers at associated with being connected to a glider in periods prior to launch and conditioning people to think that whenever they or other folk are in harnesses they're connected to gliders.

This would be true of any FTHI preventer. So I think these efforts to create such a device are well meaning but ultimately futile.

They're worse than futile...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1153
Hooking In

Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/02 02:45:48 UTC

When Bob Gillisse got hurt I suggested that our local institution of the hang check is more the problem than the solution. I still believe that. It subverts the pilot's responsibility to perform a hook-in check.

...for exactly the reason you and Steve state.

Chris Valley - 2010/06/11 04:51:13 UTC

Hmmmm...that had nothing to do with when the pilot hooked, but but more to do with pitch control and ground handling.

Rcpilot - 2010/06/11 05:09:13 UTC

Yes that is true, but if he had not been hooked in the glider could not "take him for a ride". He could just let it go.

Or - if he wanted to go TOTALLY nuts and prevent the flip from happening at all - he coulda just held onto the nose wires and steered the glider back into the wind or let it weathervane.

Chris Valley - 2010/06/11 13:37:31 UTC

Most definitely...the conditions in the above video didn't seem that strong, as well. I've had the same thing, or similar, happen to me, but still hook in at the setup area, do my hang check there, then have fewer distractions at launch.

Yeah, clipping to carabiner to a hang strap at launch. Huge freaking distraction. It's amazing I survived the sport as long as I did. And skipping the hang check altogether - go figure.

Alan Deikman - 2010/06/11 13:40:55 UTC

Chris is right. The Funston launch is where I learned a critical point of ground handling - that one of your important points of control is your hang strap. When the hang strap is tight you have effective pitch control via the downtubes or base bar and with it, roll control. It takes no effort and in fact makes everything easier since you don't have to carry as much - perhaps not even your full body weight. Without it you have to try to muscle leverage through the down tubes.

If the conditions are unmanageable hooked in, don't go to launch without a trained nose-wire guy or don't go.

In the case of the Funston launch that is so well groomed these days that many pilots are just launching ten meters back from the edge.

Don't tell Bob any of that. He's cherished system of religious beliefs is on shaky enough ground as things are.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17603
Some [maybe old] thoughts about Failure to Hook In

Steven Sims - 2010/06/24 16:00:11 UTC

I ended up buying a knee hanger and I'm clipping the bineer to the shoulder tow loop for right now to test the shoulder interference hook in reminder tactic. Helps keep the lines straight too if I do it the same way every time. I did find that, in reality, I actually tended to reach under my arm to unhook, so it is a very slight adjustment to the way I do things, but I think muscle memory will take over easily. The biner is a nice bright zinc plated piece, so I'm in no huge rush to paint it orange yet, but still plan to.

Let's concentrate on the problems that cause the most injuries and death: launching and landing.

Having spent more time at the LZ watching and talking with other pilots, I think you're right. This is becoming my focus.

BTW, I got my 10th mountain flight at LMFP last weekend!

And it sounds like you've got this failure to hook in issue TOTALLY LICKED! Congratulations!

Brian Horgan - 2010/06/24 16:14:36 UTC

aussie method for me,99.9 percent of the time!.When i set up my bird,i hook my harness to it.I do not unhook my harness until the day is done.Im to retarded to trust myself,so i take myself out of the equation.

Right along with the regulation which states:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

Oh well, I've always thought that the gene pool would somehow be able to keep struggling on with you having taken yourself right out of the equation.

Jim Gaar - 2010/06/24 16:30:06 UTC
Roeland Park, Kansas

THAT my friends shows even retarded pilots are good at risk management!

PS You Da Man Noman

And if there's any way you could manage to land on blindrodie while you're doing it the gesture would be greatly appreciated.

Michael Nester - 2010/06/24 16:57:36 UTC
North Carolina

Im with you NOMAN. Maybe not fail-safe, but the closest thing to it!

Yep. That's the ticket. Keep thinking that way.

Matt Pericles - 2010/06/24 17:04:04 UTC
Roswell, Georgia

When I was using a knee hanger, once I got into it I held the 'biner in my right hand until I clipped in. It's too easy to forget if it is clipped to the harness. Once I got my pod I switched to the Aussie method, plus a pull through check and a hang check.

Yep, you can be absolutely positive you're hooked in on launch if you stick to those procedures.

I'm not sure how hard it is to get into a knee hanger when it is attached to the glider, but for a pod I think it is easier.

If you go off of the ramp unhooked at either LMFP or Henson's, odds are very high that you will fall to your death. It's not like a slope launch where you'd most likely just wind up with a face full of base tube, so don't discount the risk. I believe that someone launched unhooked at Henson's a few years ago.

Whitwell. With launch absolutely oozing with people who had various techniques making it safe for them to assume they're hooked in on launch and absolutely no one who had any clue what a hook-in check was - thanks in no small part to Matt and his failure to hook in factory just down the road.

zamuro - 2010/06/24 17:20:34 UTC
New York

Over the years I have seen/heard several cases of launching unhooked some of them were fatal - including a friend of mine a few years ago.

Mind telling us who, how, why?

My experience is that in most cases the problems occur with switching conditions and distractions that promote hooking and unhooking from the glider. From these observations I decided to adopt for myself the so called aussie method.

Of course you did. So naturally there's no need whatsoever for you to EVER verify you're hooked in within a time frame too short to be vulnerable to the issues of switching conditions and distractions.

It is a bit inconvenient sometimes and I understand that it may be hard depending on the harness. It works out for me and I also do a hang check!

Yeah, everything has always worked for everyone who's still around to report that it's always worked for him.

Greg Angsten - 2010/06/24 19:51:02 UTC
Los Angeles

Aussie method

My only question is why is it still an issue? Why don't all instructors teach students to hook in the harness first?

One of my main questions is why do virtually none of the fucking instructors follow the fucking regulations when they're working with them on the hill and passing them off on their ratings.

All those reasons for not doing seem so lame to me.

Of course they do.

If it is that strong you shouldn't be walking to launch with out a wireman. The only possible exception I can think of is Yosemite or a place just like it (if that could exist). Any instructors like to chime in?

I wonder why anybody who GETS IT would even still bother. Doug Hildreth's pleas in the magazine went pretty much totally unheeded for fourteen years.

Alan Deikman - 2010/06/24 20:36:13 UTC

Jesus H. Christ on a Crutch, people. Not again.

DiarmaidMurphy - 2010/06/24 21:21:57 UTC

Re: Aussie method

Not all harnesses are suitable for hooking in first. Some you need to get into, then hook in.

Brian Horgan - 2010/06/24 21:21:57 UTC

its good to revisit this 4 the new guys.

Dude! Fer sure! It's not like they've got an actual functional standardized pilot proficiency system based on rational procedures and administered by an actual functional national organization. So obviously the next best thing is for them to come to the Jack and Davis Shows and listen to all the idiot opinions from all the assholes who've remained in the good graces of Jack and Davis.

Alan Deikman - 2010/06/24 22:40:23 UTC

Not really nom.nom.noman. The "oz method versus correct method" thread will go on forever and convince absolutely nobody to change their minds or even think about their position. And those positions will be stated over and over and over and over and over and over again. Who needs it.

The one or two people out of a thousand who have enough brains to get it.

This is just one of those Internet topics that is like that. The newbies have better things to do.

Yeah. Work on their flare timing and spot landings so they can do their hang checks and launch off the big boy ramps all by themselves.

Steven Sims - 2010/06/24 23:04:57 UTC

If it helps other new pilots out to cover this all again, that's fine, but it's just not as entertaining without AeroTow here to throw gasoline on the campfire, is it?

Thanks for remembering me! I'm particularly honored since you didn't even join The Jack Show until 2010/05/24 - well over six month after I was kicked off.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16888
Safety tips re leg loops / habits (a close call!)

Helen McKerral - 2010/04/26 23:41:20 UTC

I've always done a hangcheck which includes running my hands around the legloops but for the last six months or so I have been trying to ingrain Tad's "lift and tug" but it is very hard to make it a habit. Tad's manner could be annoying but I think his message was right. A lift and tug done immediately prior to every launch (not before you walk to launch, or do your hang check; the key is immediately prior to launch), every time, would help prevent these incidents (both unhooked AND leg loops, because you feel the legloops when you lift and tug, as well as the tight hangstrap).

So did anything AeroTow was saying while throwing gasoline on the campfire make any sense to you? Just kidding.

What I was really looking for originally was to get feedback on whether those three ideas I presented were good, bad, or ugly. I got some, so thanks for that!

Great.

Robert Seckold - 2010/06/24 23:14:06 UTC

Hi Alan, I have to disagree with your statement that nobody will change their minds, I know of at least two tandem instructors who has changed over to the Aussie method after launching unhooked, plus other members here have stated that they have changed over. You are right though, some people will never change and hey they are the pilot in charge of their own aircraft.

Yeah. Kinda like the way all the slimebags who go to prison for five or ten years always seem to come out having given their lives over to Jesus.

DiarmaidMurphy - 2010/06/24 23:46:18 UTC

I also disagree. I staunchly didn't try the Aussie method because I don't like changing my routine, I figure routine helps keep things safe. But I have decided that it's worth checking out, and am gonna use the Aussie method for a while now when I get back flying and see how it works out.

And, of course, don't even consider doing a last instant hook-in check 'cause the possible consequences of a disruption to your routine on that scale could have consequences too horrible to even think about.

Nic Welbourn - 2010/06/25 00:06:12 UTC

This is the best reason I've seen so far to not use the Aussie method!

And the fundamental off the scale stupidity of it doesn't bother you any?

This thread is righteous.

And one sentence away from dying with nothing positive of any substance being accomplished.

I think we should now talk about wheels, and how great they are.

Told ya so.

Kevin Cosley - 1994/05
Issaquah, Washington

I think an effective safeguard against failure-to-hook-in accidents would be a harness that felt different when hooked in than not. When standing on launch, if you picked up your glider without hooking in, it would feel different than what you were used to and you would know something was wrong.

The simplest way I can think of to do this would be to have shock cord which went from harness to the carabiner, parallel to the harness mains but a few inches shorter. When you stand under your glider and hook in, it pulls up on your leg loops. When launching, your weight quickly overpowers the shock cord allowing you to hang normally in flight.

Once you became used to standing on launch with tension on your leg loops you would know something was wrong if you stood there with everything slack. A more more permanent setup could be installed in a harness using a small steel spring and perlon cord enclosed in a fabric sleeve.

Just an idea. Are there other ways to make a harness feel weird when not hooked in?.

Yeah Kevin, I can actually think of one - even simpler than the ones you have in mind and with no additional crap to install in the airflow or your harness.

When standing on launch, if you picked up your glider without hooking in AND LIFTED IT AS HIGH AS YOU COULD, it would feel different from what you were used to and you would know something was wrong.

But for that to work you'd hafta actually DO IT and it would be a pretty good idea if you did it EVERY TIME and JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH so you'd become used to lifting on launch with tension on your leg loops and would know something was weird and very seriously wrong if you were just standing there with everything slack - like just about all the assholes who participate in this sport always do and get away with about 99.8 percent of the time.

P.S. Did you try either of your ideas AFTER getting your letter to the editor published? Just kidding.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24459
Blown launch and crash into trees

David Stevens - 2012/01/08

http://vimeo.com/34757572


2012/01/08 - Out for what I was hoping was a nice soarable January day. The day before I flew in 60 degree weather in Elizabethville, Pennsylvania and was hoping for another soaring flight near State College. It was much colder, about 34 degrees and I was wearing a new balaclava under my helmet. That probably added to the circumstances of the communications problems.

Because I stood up and was ready to launch so fast my right wire man didn't have time or I caught him off guard before he could tell me what I had on his wing. Yelling "No, wait, stop" probably wasn't the best, and the left wire guy was pretty convincing with "Your glider!". I didn't really hear the right side, but felt I had control of the glider. I should have verified launch readiness with "What have you got?" then "My glider?"' followed by another "My glider?", made sure I heard both answers, and then yelled clear.

On the left I was hearing "your glider", "go don't stop go!" and on the right "wait", "no", "stop stop STOP!". It was all pretty confusing, but I should have ignored it all.

If you watch, as soon as the right side releases the glider pops on the right a few inches. But I had the glider firmly on my shoulders and was driving forward in full control. I thought something was real bad like not hooked in or something. Had I waited to listen to the right side that he had up or his response to "my glider" all would have been prevented. Had I known why he was yelling wait and stop, I would have just launched, as I have with similar right wing pops.

I was too hasty in my launch process and didn't listen to what both my wire crew were saying. I don't blame anyone other than myself. I am the pilot in command.

I have a very strong first stride that really helps in all my launches but makes it really hard to stop. I tried after the first or second stride and fought it the whole way to the edge. Then I resigned myself to going into the trees and jumped off to get the glider flying so I'd have some semblance of control.

I thought of diving to the right and down the slot but feared a tumble and crash down the steepest and rockiest part of the hill. I figured the trees were safer.

Riding that tree to the ground was luck. Had I not stiff legged it I would have hit the ground head first. I didn't, so no worries. All I can say is try to hit the tree dead on so you have a chance at grabbing something. I am still amazed about how much energy I had. That tree I bent over is at least six inches diameter at the ground.

The lesson is - never stop running (unless you're not hooked in) no matter the commotion behind you. And always verify the flight worthiness of you and your glider right before you launch to remove any doubt about being hooked in. I usually review my preflight in my head as well. And finally, make sure you understand what your crew is telling you.

Again, the blame, if any, rests on my shoulders. I'll be a better pilot for it, and I'm glad to have been flying with those who were there.

I should have verified launch readiness with "What have you got?" then "My glider?"' followed by another "My glider?", made sure I heard both answers, and then yelled clear.

Anything ELSE it's generally a good idea to establish in order to verify launch readiness?

But I had the glider firmly on my shoulders and was driving forward in full control.

There are a lot of people who had the glider firmly on their shoulders and were driving forward in full control at that stage of launch who ain't around no more.

I thought something was real bad like not hooked in or something.

Exactly what was it that made you think you WERE hooked in when you started your launch run?

I don't blame anyone other than myself.

- I think the guy yelling for you to stop could've done a little better.

- I've also got a problem with both members of your wire crew for letting you start without a hook-in check. If I had been on your crew I'd have said, "DON'T MOVE!!! YOU'RE NOT HOOKED IN!!!" just before you cleared me.

I am the pilot in command.

Not for long on that one.

I have a very strong first stride that really helps in all my launches but makes it really hard to stop.

Fine. There are a lot of launches and situations in which once you've taken the first step you don't have that option anyway.

The lesson is - never stop running (unless you're not hooked in) no matter the commotion behind you.

The lesson SHOULD BE - never START running unless you've done something to satisfy yourself that you ARE hooked in within the previous two seconds.

And always verify the flight worthiness of you and your glider right before you launch to remove any doubt about being hooked in.

- Define "right before".
- NEVER remove any doubt about being hooked in.
- So you normally remove any doubt about being hooked in right before you launch. But you just forgot to do that this ONE time. Right?

I usually review my preflight in my head as well.

Good. But just never assume that ANYTHING you've done as part of your PREFLIGHT procedures is of the slightest value in confirming that you're hooked in when you decide to commit.

And finally, make sure you understand what your crew is telling you.

- That wasn't the problem that put you into the trees here. The problem was that you didn't wait to hear what they were telling you.
- That really shouldn't be the final thing on your list anyway.

Again, the blame, if any, rests on my shoulders.

- Interesting choice of words.

- Yeah, whenever a couple of thousand dollars worth of damage is done to a glider there's some blame that needs to be assigned somewhere - most often to the guy who started out with the glider resting on his shoulders. And especially after what shoulda been a brain dead easy launch - but you don't need me to tell you that.

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

- We know that an absolute MINIMUM of 83 seconds elapsed with nothing happening. That's over 41 times what I'd consider acceptable.

- And the time that elapsed between when you stabilized on your feet and committed was about two seconds. That would've been enough.

- And if you HAD launched with tight suspension after lifting the glider yourself or letting the wind or your crew lift it you'd almost certainly have gone home with another hour in your log book and a pristine glider in the bag on top of your car.

I'll be a better pilot for it...

How 'bout posting your next launch so we can see if there's any substance to that statement?

...and I'm glad to have been flying with those who were there.

I'm trying to think of people whose company I enjoy so much that I'd have gone home glad to have made that flight. Nothing's coming to me.

P.S. I've wired so many tourists on trainers on the dunes that I've almost run off of cliffs a couple of times as a consequence of my instinct to stay on the wing until the glider's well into launch and stable. If your right wire had violated protocol and used some common sense and stayed with you to address his concern or make sure you did instead of yelling for you to abort, that would also have resulted in a much better day for all concerned.

Sailplane pilots don't get all hyper about not having people touching their sacred wings as they start accelerating into launch - too bad hang glider folk are all so rabid about this "Pilot In Command" issue. (Except, of course, that they're all so eager to put their lives entirely at the disposal of any asshole capable of taking off and landing a Dragonfly three or four times and the fibers of a little loop of fishing line.)

I'm not perfect - and would be no match for Mother Nature even if I were. If you see something wrong with my launch you think you can fix better or quicker than I can - hell, go for it.

P.P.S. Just don't ever assume that the reason I'm still on tow is because I can't figure out how to get off and make a good decision in the interest of my safety - because if you do and I live they won't be able to identify what's left of you using dental records.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWxHEMyRZXI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWxHEMyRZXI

recommit - 2011/01/16

Portsea Hang Glider Crash

This guy picked up the glider and headed for the launch, surrounded by potential assistants. He didn't even make it to the launch before disaster struck.

-

Trying to launch without assistance in strong wind at Portsea, Victoria - 2011/01/16.

Simon Milner

I helped the guy retrieve the glider from the bushes and let him settle down for a half hour or so, then approached him to see if everything was OK and if he wanted a copy of the accident, but he was pretty arrogant, so I didn't get a name or any details.

Most of the pilots took their time setting up and got some help holding the wires and I got plenty of footage of them doing hang checks, etc. But he got up and charged off for the launch and before anyone knew it, including his wife, he popped the nose and became a passenger.

No no no no. The problem wasn't that he eschewed all that available wire crew help and decided to self launch in a gale.

He'd have been just fine if he hadn't done that insane lift and tug procedure to verify that he was hooked in - as he was certain he was anyway.

Watch the video carefully...

0:13 - Suspension slack, no problem.
0:14 - Suspension tight, BIG problem.

Right Bob?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24459
Blown launch and crash into trees

Nic Welbourn - 2012/01/12 05:19:54 UTC
Canberra

Yeah, a good preflight (for me, that includes checking the harness is attached) gives you a certain piece of mind when it comes time to launch.

<rant>
I just don't know why you'd walk around in your harness before launching, unless you'd just landed and were about to launch again... but even then, I get out of my harness rather than detach it from the glider!! The idea of unhooking because it's "easier" doesn't make a lot of sense to me, the logic sounds like that of choosing a mode of free flight based on convenience (e.g. setup time), rather than safety and performance. I figure most folks who walk around in HG harnesses do it to be recognised as a cool hang glider pilot (which is of course very cool), I just can't see another good reason. Probably not a popular view on this forum.
</end rant>

NMERider - 2012/01/12 06:10:54 UTC

Nic,

Why assume anything about the issue when you can simply ask other pilots why they use or don't use the Aussie method? I'd say that it's a mixed bag, just like wheels, chin guards, and lots of things we choose from (and disagree about). I hate walking around in my harness and think it looks pretty stupid but I can't always situate my glider in a manner that allows me to safely and reliably get into my harness while it's attached to my glider.

I use both methods depending on the situation. Don't tell me that no pilot ever neglected to insert his legs into the leg loops or left his chest strap unhooked before launching when his harness was already hooked into his wing. I would be highly skeptical of such a claim to put it very politely.

Cheers, Jono

Yeah, a good preflight (for me, that includes checking the harness is attached) gives you a certain piece of mind when it comes time to launch.

- Yeah, you wanna check the that the harness is attached at preflight so you can be sure the harness is attached before you leave the setup area. Good strategy.

- And it's so reassuring to be standing on the edge of the ramp with that certain piece of mind a good preflight always gives you when it comes time to launch.

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

- Of course if you had more than just a piece of mind you'd realize that being scared shitless when it comes time to launch is a much better plan for keeping you alive.

I just don't know why you'd walk around in your harness before launching...

'Cause in a lot of situations it's ten times easier and safer to stay in your harness and clip back in just prior to your HOOK-IN CHECK and launch. (You HAVE heard of a hook-in check before, right?)

...unless you'd just landed and were about to launch again...

You mean like...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?

William Olive - 2010/01/28 04:50:53 UTC

Phil Beck did this twice (or was that three times?) in a day at Hexham (Victoria) one time while foot launch aerotow testing gliders. Of course, with a swag of gliders to test fly, Phil would unclip from the glider he'd just landed, then clip into the next one to be tested.

Except, at least twice, he didn't clip in.

...Phil Beck? Phil Beck who's conditioned himself to assume that whenever he's in a harness he's connected to the nearest glider?

...but even then, I get out of my harness rather than detach it from the glider!!

Well good for you. And, of course, you always assume that everybody else does that too.

The idea of unhooking because it's "easier" doesn't make a lot of sense to me...

That's OK, the idea of doing a bunch of four pass dune flights and for each climbing into and out of the harness while it's connected to the glider in winds which can flip it, carrying the harness up the slope separately or clipped, repeatedly risking missing leg loops, and never doing hook-in checks seems absolutely insane to me.

...the logic sounds like that of choosing a mode of free flight based on convenience (e.g. setup time), rather than safety and performance.

Lotsa times - believe it or not - operations in aviation that are the fastest and most efficient and convenient are also the safest and result in the best overall performance.

I figure most folks who walk around in HG harnesses do it to be recognised as a cool hang glider pilot (which is of course very cool), I just can't see another good reason.

Yeah. That's OBVIOUSLY what it is. It's all about looking really cool waddling around in all that heavy gear on the ground behind launch when everybody's watching what's going on at, below, in front of, and over it. And that's also why I leave my helmet off till the last possible moment - so people can tell who I am and later recognize me as a really cool hang glider pilot.

Probably not a popular view on this forum.

Who cares?

Don't tell me that no pilot ever neglected to insert his legs into the leg loops or left his chest strap unhooked before launching when his harness was already hooked into his wing.

If your chest zipper has never blown open in flight the buckle has never mattered. Even if your chest zipper HAS blown open in flight (mine has) it still doesn't matter much if buckle isn't hooked (mine wasn't). In order for your buckle to MAYBE matter you've gotta have a violent enough parachute opening shock to blow open your zipper and be at a weird enough orientation to stand a chance of being ejected. Let's see a show of hands of people alive today because their buckles held when there zippers didn't.

Leg loops, on the other hand...