Kite Strings

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24918
Aero-tow cart/dolly info???

Nube - 2019/07/16 11:20:39 UTC

When launching from dolly, how the angle of attack is set up? In other words, how do I know in what position I should set my keel holder?
Im building a dolly for my self and I have been wondering this for a while
Regards Nuutti

There is no angle attack involved in the setting. That only becomes an issue after you've developed some airspeed.

cliver - 2019/07/16 13:01:47 UTC
Toronto

Not sure if anyone else is following this thread so, here we go...
The basic beginner gliders tolerate a higher nose angle, the faster gliders and rigid wings generally tolerate lower angles.
The idea is to be set not too nose high causing the weak links and tug to strain against the drag, not be set too low, so you remain "stuck" on the cart. We have had a few accidents at our field due to the incorrect adjustment of the tail rack. The cause has always seemed to be too low a nose angle so the glider remained "stuck" on the cart, going fast and scary.
I'm not sure if we ever created a formula about this setting and setup.

I will look for some docs...

Cheers

The basic beginner gliders tolerate a higher nose angle, the faster gliders and rigid wings generally tolerate lower angles.

I'm gonna call that rubbish.

Set the pitch attitude such that the keel will lift a few inches up from its support when the wing trims in response to airflow. Err nose high for starters. The only downside is that you're a little more vulnerable to cross winds and gusts before things get up to speed. And that tends not to be an issue in real life anyway.

The idea is to be set not too nose high causing the weak links and tug to strain against the drag...

Yeah, and a proper AT weak link is carefully calibrated to increase the safety of the towing operation at five percent over normal tow pressure for an average pilot on an average glider behind an average powered tug in average towing conditions. So ya gotta be real careful about minimizing that drag as you're getting up to speed. And it's totally heartbreaking to watch a tug straining against the drag to get that nose trimmed down in the early stage of the tow - 'specially if the glider's a heavier than average tandem and the tires are a bit underinflated.

...not be set too low, so you remain "stuck" on the cart. We have had a few accidents at our field due to the incorrect adjustment of the tail rack. The cause has always seemed to be too low a nose angle so the glider remained "stuck" on the cart, going fast and scary.

- Fucking morons.

- Any chance we can see the incident reports? (Just kidding.)

- And after the pilot forced it up outta the cart the glider rocketed up and the Standard Aerotow Weak Link...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.

...increased the safety of the towing operation, right?

- Funny the way we never seem to hear about any launches other than AT going fast and scary...

12-01125
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8809/18382342111_f94a5114a9_o.png

10-03323
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14397296584_1d0e5e389b_o.png


...ain't it? And the tug's still on the ground at this point, right cliver?

And even well after the tug gets airborne...

17-1821
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/962/40373978690_9aef9ff7ca_o.png


...nobody ever talks about it going scary fast. So exactly what is it that we're really scared of during one of these Mach 5 takeoffs?

I'm not sure if we ever created a formula about this setting and setup.

- See above about erring nose high for starters.

- What formula did you HPAC douchebags ever come up with for determining the ideal one-size-fits-all strength for the focal point of your safe towing system? And...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/13 17:57:05 UTC

Former Flight Park Manager

Because it has the best known and accountable safety record (in my personal books anyway).

...how's that been working out for y'all?

I will look for some docs...

Do let us know.

P.S. Pity Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

...is no longer around to get all you muppets properly sorted out on all things AT...

08-19
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5277/30076449505_1f6ed2f804_o.png


...ain't it? Notice the way AT incident reports rocketed up after he got too...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

...sick and tired of all us soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout our shit at funerals to continue keeping us in line?
---
P.S. - 2019/07/22 14:15:00 UTC

Just in case it wasn't fucking obvious enough... Those "fast and scary" launches aren't scary 'cause they're...

Jerry Forburger - 1990/10

High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.

...rolling towards or into the killer "lockout". Those gliders are coming off dead level and staying that way. They're scary SOLELY because:

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

And I'd wager that the really scary ones are flying pro toad.

http://ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=26797
Re: Universal Paragliding Design Flaw (UPDF)

wingspan33 wrote:...And I have NEVER seen a hang glider pilot "miss-launch" involving falling and bouncing against the ground in the process...

Define "pilot".

http://www.kitestrings.org/post11673.html#p11673

http://ozreport.com/23.164
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Davis Straub - 2019/08/15 12:49:29 UTC

Bobby didn't give me the rope, thankfully

The video from Mike Degtoff:

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/VID-20190813-WA0012.mp4

(15-0705)

Scraping the taxi way:



I stay on the cart (at least the right side and pull the cart up with me. I assume that when the left wing lifted the hose on the cradle was pulled from my hand. We have thirty wind indicators down the taxi way. The dug out on the cradles may be too deep.

Introduced by Brian to Kite Strings at:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post11671.html#p11671

The venue is the Big Spring Nationals - 2019/08/13 (the Bob Show's ninth birthday (and Christmas in August for Kite Strings)). The glider's a Wills Wing T3 144.

The second image in Davis's post (in case anyone is having as much trouble understanding what we're supposed to be seeing as I was) is his illustration of the abrasion damage to his starboard tip.

The video's a low resolution - 352x640 - horrible vertical format handheld iPhone job but we'll certainly be overjoyed with what we can get for this one. For all of the stills I chopped 80 pixels of empty concrete off the bottom and 175 pixels of empty cloudless sky off the top. You're not missing so much as a stray grasshopper anywhere.

Nine participants:
- Davis Straub
- Stephan Mentler
- Wayne B. Ripley
- Jim Gaar
- Brad Gryder
- Ben Reese
- Joe Faust
- Bart Weghorst
- John Armstrong
for thirteen posts in the "discussion" so far as I post this one. Note the deafening silence on Jack, Grebloville, Bob, Capitol. Not to mention from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight, Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt, Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden, Dennis Excellent-Book Pagen...

01-0000
- 01 - chronological order
- 00 - seconds
- 00 - frame (30 fps)

01-0000 - 02-0015

03-0106 - 04-0203

05-0221 - 06-0306

07-0321 - 08-0407

09-0422 - 10-0429

11-0506 - 12-0521

13-0605 - 14-0614

15-0705 - 16-0711

17-0717 - 18-0801

19-0815 - 20-0902

21-0913 - 22-1002

23-1020 - 24-1117

25-1210 - 26-1326

27-1412 - 28-1503

29-1622


http://www.kitestrings.org/post11675.html#p11675

http://www.kitestrings.org/post11675.html#p11675

Trying to pick up that 7-10 split.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Davis Straub - 2019/08/15 12:49:29 UTC

Bobby didn't give me the rope, thankfully

Reminds me a lot of the way Bobby didn't give Robin the rope...

http://ozreport.com/9.127
Robin's accident

Davis Straub - 2005/06/14

Once the glider bounces off the ground, Robin is never able to get the glider lined up correctly behind Bobby Bailey and drifted continually to the left, locking out and crashing from a low altitude. If Bobby had released Robin at any time before the last two or three seconds he would likely not have crashed, at least not from a lockout.

...thankfully.

http://ozreport.com/9.008
2005 Worlds

Davis Straub - 2005/01/10

As he took off his left wing was dragging. Bobby Bailey, the best tow pilot in the business, moved to the right into get further into the wind, and Rob got his left wing up and flying as he lined up behind Bobby.

Best tow pilot in the business.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Wouldn't expect anything less.

I stay on the cart (at least the right side and pull the cart up with me. I assume that when the left wing lifted the hose on the cradle was pulled from my hand.

Meaning you don't remember whether you were holding onto the left hose with an adequate grip or just allowed it to slip away 'cause you were in your usual dope-on-the-rope mode.

We're supposed to be holding onto the goddam hold-downs with enough grip to take at least the front of the cart up with us.

We have thirty wind indicators down the taxi way.

- The way you assholes didn't on 2000/01/12 when you vegged Mike Nooy at Hay?

- Well then. It obviously wasn't a crosswind gust, monster thermal, dust devil that rolled you pretty hard left...

07-0321


...no more than three seconds into launch then was sanding your right wingtip down on the runway...

14-0614


...at six and a half seconds. What do you think it was then? A gravitational wave from a black holes collision out there somewhere back a couple billion years ago?

The dug out on the cradles may be too deep.

Yeah, the "dug outs". They call them that because they dig them out to get the proper recessions. And when you get too much towline pressure with the glider running sideways and the tip dragging on the runway you can start getting major problems.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly 20 years...

Getting near thirty years now, Paul. One's mind is absolutely staggered looking at the progress we've made. Were the dugout cart cradles yet another Quest innovation?

We have wind indicators available from this clip. There's a dust cloud that gets kicked up by the cart's skidding tail wheel...

22-1002 - 29-1622


...and there's a red ribbon visible protruding into the left edge of my last frame. I'm seeing NOTHING that should have been a shadow of an issue for this launch. And I've launched at Ridgely with a scary strong but smooth ninety left cross. You come off the cart and go way sideways but keep level and don't worry about anything. The glider eventually yaws back towards the tug, the tug turns into the wind, and it's suddenly a normal tow. Kinda fun.

01-0000


Does anybody else start a launch with his body angled to the side like this? And he just fuckin' STAYS...

11-0506


...THERE until and after he gets into serious trouble. I think we've identified our issue.
---
P.S. - 2019/08/17 00:40:00 UTC

Trying to pick up that 7-10 split.

Took me a while but I finally got it. (I've never bowled.) Yeah, excellent.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Stephan Mentler - 2019/08/15 15:23:13 UTC

Was the wind cross from the left?

Yeah. Absolutely astounding that this was the only near fatal incident out of that round that's come to our attention.

Very glad that you are ok.

Me too. I'd hate for you to have to go to the trouble of you finding another satisfactory dick to suck.

Wayne B. Ripley - 2019/08/15 18:14:00 UTC

In my mind, he should have given you the rope...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Great minds...

...you where very compromised...

Motherfucker was born very compromised. But fortunately all those concussions he got in junior high football changed his wiring.

...and with a little more bad luck...

Yeah. He got into that situation solely as a consequence of bad luck. And if it can happen to someone who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who as much as Davis has I'm not seeing much hope for any of us muppets.

...could have gone in hard...

You mean like:


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg

...I know it worked out...

You sure got that much right. Fuckin' dope on a rope lucking out. So tell me what that says about all of Davis's highly touted risk mitigation plans for all his comps. The ones with the ironclad requirements for appropriate bridles and weak links.

...but it could have gone the other way.

One can always dream. We were SO CLOSE this time.

This may seem obvious to most but worth discussing a bit more .

And when this discussion peters out after another day or two almost entirely devoid of substance everybody can go back to doing everything exactly the same way they've been doing it since the beginning of time and expect much better results.

Jim Gaar - 2019/08/15 18:19:16 UTC

Agreed. Glad it turned out well

It didn't work out well. Davis came away smelling like a rose with his fuckin' neck fully intact.

I know why I would have given him the rope.

Are you sure? Have you tapped into the opinions of any others in your circle of fake tug pilots.

I also know Bobby is the best around in a DF.

Fuck yeah. It's totally amazing the way he keeps doing...

18-0801


...absolutely nothing in response to the crisis developing behind him. Cool as a goddam cucumber. Right... ...Rodie?

Why would "you" have given him the rope.

Me?

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

And with this:

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

I can kill the motherfucker and look like I did my utmost to save him in a virtually hopeless situation. And his next of kin will be obligated to thank me for my heroic efforts.

Davis could you get a remark from Bobby?

Get real.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit and we muppets have been unworthy of any on-the-record comments from him since the advent of commercial aerotowing. Suck it up, cool dude.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Wayne B. Ripley - 2019/08/15 19:38:59 UTC

your launch

My best guess is he was going 22 to 25 mph and the tug was under full power...

A 914 Dragonfly towing at full power on a solo tow?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

You will only ever need full throttle for the first 50ft of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.

Beware the awesome power of the 914...

Ah, the full-on firebreathing monstrous glory that is the 914
Enjoy

I think we're finally getting somewhere. Pretty fuckin' obvious that Davis was using a Tad-O-Link to trade off safety for convenience. Didn't come anywhere CLOSE...

19-0815


...to breaking when it was supposed to. So how come...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26134
Whipstall almost tumble

Mike Bomstad - 2011/12/26 08:33:15 UTC

Well, how about a weak link......

...nobody's yet even WHISPERED anything about the focal point of our safe towing system?

..."if" he dug that tip in a bit more and the glider cartwheeled in he would/could have gone in head first...

...at that point you would only be lucky to not have a major injuries of the worst possible kind.

Let's go for a quad.

Better safe than sorry...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/15 21:27:45 UTC

Yes, for solo towing, every single one worked, hundreds of times!

...hit the release...

Can you take a look at my collection of 29 stills and pick out the best one for Davis making the easy reach...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal

Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC

I'm willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of my hand.

...to his easily reachable bent pin barrel release?

...and try the square the glider off and go in straight and on the basebar.

Yeah, let's have a twenty post discussion on the best procedure to use for when the tug's climbing away to the north at full power and you're three feet off the deck, rolled to the south, and heading east. Maybe a paragraph or two on hook knives.

I know this is Sunday morning quarterbacking but worth talking about...

Point me to a Davis or Jack Show discussion out of which something substantive has emerged.

I may be wrong, not infallible.

You want infallible the Standard Aerotow Weak Link couldn't be beaten. One fatal inconvenience tumble at Quest over half a dozen years ago and then everyone and his dog wants to reinvent a really damn good wheel.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Brad Gryder - 2019/08/15 19:47:18 UTC

Only the flight participants and maybe a few eyewitnesses can properly assess whether the rope should have been "given" to the hg pilot. If both pilots are not hurt, then most likely the right decision was made. The hang glider pilot was one of the key participants, and you've read his comment. Also, who on this planet is worthy of second-guessing this tug pilot's decision? I would argue that no one is.

Here's a few points to consider:
1) The good tug pilot will always do what is best for both pilots. He or she will "do no harm".
2) Unless the hang glider or the tug is nearing a catastrophic situation which will not likely improve with the rope attached, the good tug pilot will NOT give the rope if doing so is likely to make the situation worse for either pilot.
3) In general, the good tug pilot will only release the rope if it's obvious the glider or tug is in critical condition and is likely to crash if not released.

Time_Stamp -- Condition
3.0 sec Glider rolls left, possible right cradle separation, pilot CG shifted right
4.0 sec CG right, wing rolls right to now be back to level
4.5 sec Wing continues to roll right, left cradle separation, CG to right side
5.0 sec Pilot's CG is still right, large left cradle separation, ~15 deg right roll
5.5 sec CG way far right, glider maintains ~15 deg right roll
6.0 sec CG is still way far right of center, ~20 deg right roll, right tip on runway
6.5 sec CG far right, right wingtip dragging on runway
7.0 sec CG centered, right tip dragging, glider nearing divergence zone
7.5 sec CG centered, but flying more than 30 deg off heading, tip dragging
8.0 sec CG left, both roll and heading are improving
8.5 sec CG left, roll now reduced to ~10 deg right
9.0 sec Glider finally out of Danger Zone

Note: All personal references (i.e. names) were removed to protect the unairborne and airborne subjects.

Only the flight participants and maybe a few eyewitnesses can properly assess whether the rope should have been "given" to the hg pilot.

Right Brad. Whenever what should've been a routine AT launch in routine conditions - conditions in which not one other tow has been reported to have had the slightest issue - degenerates to:

14-0614


only the two assholes directly involved in the clusterfuck - plus maybe one or two of the assholes hanging out in the vicinity - are qualified to comment on any aspect of the incident. We armchair quarterbacks watching video records frame by frame, carefully listening to the tons of information the back end asshole isn't giving us and the usual total silence we're getting from the front end asshole are totally incapable of contributing anything of the least use or significance.

If both pilots are not hurt...

Name one tug driver who ever suffered a slight bruise as a consequence of an out-of-position glider.

...then most likely the right decision was made.

Absolutely. Just have a look at these two launch monkeys:

07-0321 - 11-0506


They're both paying rapt attention to the progress of this one 'cause they wanna fully understand how the best of the best pull things off so they too might one day be able to achieve similar degrees of aeronautical mastery.

The hang glider pilot was one of the key participants, and you've read his comment.

Yeah. Took hours to wade through and fully understand but the effort paid off in spades.

Also, who on this planet is worthy of second-guessing this tug pilot's decision?

- On this planet? I guess that would rule out Robin Strid.

- Are we sure that this tug pilot actually made any decisions based on anything that was going on with the glider? If we photoshopped the glider entirely out of this film clip how different would the tug takeoff and climbout look...

18-0801


...from any other Dragonfly taking off and climbing out with nothing behind it?

I would argue that no one is.

And you're a Flight Park Mafia total shit in good standing...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC

There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.

...so there's very little danger of you losing any arguments on The Davis Show.

Here's a few points to consider:
1) The good tug pilot...

And there has never in the history of hang glider aerotowing been a single shred of documentation of a bad tug pilot - one who has created the slightest issue for his passenger...

15-03805
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8575/16461636509_bc5610be13_o.png

42-05328
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7309/11414153476_3ca8cc4036_o.png

47-05508
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7353/11414310093_ddeecbcbfa_o.png


So let's just drop the adjective - redundant, goes without saying, total waste of bandwidth. Cite a single example to the contrary if you don't believe me. It's like the Standard Aerotow Weak Link - increases the safety of the towing operation...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

...at the maximum cost of a bit of inconvenience.

...will always do what is best for both pilots.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.

Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.
Do you have any idea how few of us there are?
You think we don't talk?
I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.

He or she will "do no harm".

Why the quotation marks? Is it like:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

And now we seem to be using it everywhere - as this sixteen second video clip rather dramatically illustrates. And guess what isn't around anymore...

08-19
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5277/30076449505_1f6ed2f804_o.png


Nobody's ever heard of him before. Ditto for his Standard Aerotow Weak Link. No aerotow weak link of any description nowadays. We no longer have weak link breaks - which are GOOD things. Now we have...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=35855
Flying Clothes

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2018/01/31 23:18:06 UTC

I entertained pads for a comp where the aerotow was from pavement, fearing a line break just after takeoff but ultimately decided against because they were so uncomfortable.

...LINE breaks - which are bad things.

2) Unless the hang glider or the tug is nearing a catastrophic situation which will not likely improve with the rope attached, the good tug pilot will NOT give the rope if doing so is likely to make the situation worse for either pilot.

What about the one-size-fits-all Standard Aerotow Weak Link all you motherfuckers forced us all to fly with for decades?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


What if it overrides the decisions of both pilots to maintain the tow?

3) In general, the good tug pilot will only release the rope if it's obvious the glider or tug is in critical condition and is likely to crash if not released.

- In general? How 'bout the NOT "in general" situations - like all the ones in which the glider crashes and burns?

- If the situation is so critical that the glider's likely to crash if not released it's a damn near certainty that he's gonna crash immediately after being released. See Jeff Bohl, Quest, 2016/05/21.

- Why won't the fucking glider release himself long before it's obvious the situation is critical? Doesn't he have a better perspective on what's going on back there than the asshole flying his own plane 250 feet ahead maybe watching the reflection of the glider in a convex mirror? Is it because his shit excuse for a release can only be actuated...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...in totally under control situations when there's zilch pressure on anything?

- Does the "GOOD" tug pilot allow a glider with total crap Industry Standard "equipment" to hook up behind it? I submit that there's no such thing as a good tug pilot in hang glider aerotowing.

- And here I was thinking that all tug pilots are totally incapable of maintaining any degree of safe control of their birds in any situation not immediately preceded by...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Rob Clarkson - 2011/09/02 23:07:13 UTC

The tug can't get off the ground because the tail is being pulled up so much and they both crash into the fence at the end of the run way.

...a Standard Aerotow Weak Link success.

Time_Stamp -- Condition
3.0 sec Glider rolls left, possible right cradle separation, pilot CG shifted right

07-0321

4.0 sec CG right, wing rolls right to now be back to level

08-0407

4.5 sec Wing continues to roll right, left cradle separation, CG to right side

09-0422

5.0 sec Pilot's CG is still right, large left cradle separation, ~15 deg right roll

11-0506

5.5 sec CG way far right, glider maintains ~15 deg right roll

12-0521

6.0 sec CG is still way far right of center, ~20 deg right roll, right tip on runway

13-0605

6.5 sec CG far right, right wingtip dragging on runway

14-0614

7.0 sec CG centered, right tip dragging, glider nearing divergence zone

15-0705

7.5 sec CG centered, but flying more than 30 deg off heading, tip dragging

17-0717

8.0 sec CG left, both roll and heading are improving

18-0801

8.5 sec CG left, roll now reduced to ~10 deg right

19-0815

9.0 sec Glider finally out of Danger Zone

20-0902

Note: All personal references (i.e. names) were removed to protect the unairborne and airborne subjects.

Protect them from WHAT? This isn't a stellar example of how to conduct an AT launch with the widest possible safety margins with the best possible procedures, equipment, emergency responses in the worst conditions that Mother Nature's able to throw at us? It's a total disservice to all those unnamed individuals whose stellar performances limited the consequences of this one to a minor scuffing of a wingtip. One can only hope they're following this thread and will soon come forward to rectify this shoddy sleight and injustice. I'm gonna start holding my breath now.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Ben Reese - 2019/08/15 22:35:23 UTC

Good Job Cloud Hopper,

Fuck yeah. Impossible to find a punctuation mark's worth of mediocrity anywhere in that one.

I completely agree with your analysis and your advice to the bleachers!

Big fuckin' surprise. And do keep up your heroic support for Emperor Bob as well.

"STFU!!"

It's not like anybody with anything intelligent to say on The Davis Show has any choice.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13545
tow accidents

Brian Horgan - 2009/11/01 17:18:06 UTC

if you dont fly then shut the fuk up.

(Birds of a feather.)

Joe Faust - 2019/08/16 03:02:07 UTC

D, would you release yourself at 3.0 at some next similar event?

No, he didn't release himself at any Second.0 mark prior to impact on this one:


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


Why would we expect any variation in his emergency response procedures at this Big Spring job?

Davis Straub - 2019/08/16 10:35:41 UTC

No.

See? Toldyaso. (Very well stated, Davis.)

Bart Weghorst - 2019/08/16 13:07:59 UTC

Lower body is resting on the right side of the cart.

I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason for that - one way too complex for any of us stupid muppets would understand.

Also Bobby is taking off before you do.

Cite a molecule's worth of evidence or indication that Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey has the slightest clue that there's the least undesirable issue going on back there.

I would adjust my launch technique if I were you.

I'd adjust his face to an unrecognizable bloody pulp. But I think as those concussions continue to kick in and he gets more and more senile all we've gotta do is wait a few more seasons.

Joe Faust - 2019/08/16 13:28:03 UTC

Would we expand

What part of:

No.

are you having so much trouble understanding?

4.0 sec CG right, wing rolls right to now be back to level
to
4.0 sec CG right, wing rolls right to now be back to level, but in oscillation dynamic. ???

I wonder why nobody else had any problems that day? Or any other day we've heard about.

Would D self-release at 4.0 in a future similar status at 4.0?

Nah, the problem is that it's towing. Stick to nice safe mountain foot launching - where nothing bad ever happens to anyone.

John Armstrong - 2019/08/16 13:53:30 UTC

davis launch

We all know, when you mess with the bull, you might get the horn.

What bull?

Davis Straub - 2019/08/15 12:49:29 UTC

We have thirty wind indicators down the taxi way.

There couldn't possibly have been anything of the slightest significance going on with the air.

All we HG pilots have been in real dangerous situations.

Like flying in any competition in which Davis has any authority over anything.

A lucky save, again, Davis. Glad you saved another one.

Oh. It was a LUCKY save but DAVIS SAVED ANOTHER ONE. By doing WHAT? Nothing right that anyone has been able to identify? Just dangling under the glider while the towline eventually pulls it back in the general direction of the tug?

If this had been some nobody Two on the cart everyone and his dog would be screaming for the heads of all those responsible for allowing him to get his glider anywhere near a launch cart.

(Nice typing by the way. You must be amazing when you're doing it without Davis's dick in your mouth.)

Wayne B. Ripley - 2019/08/16 17:14:55 UTC

Your launch

Interesting discussion...

Goddam right. Remember the days when people still thought they knew what a weak link was?

...and I was not trying to demean either the one involved...

That's OK. I'll be more than happy to demean both those motherfuckers over here.

...but Merely to ask if under similar circumstances would they both take the same action.

Sure. This was a textbook example of everyone involved doing everything as right as humanly possible. What's you're fuckin' problem?

I guess my point is, if the tug pilot did hit the release...

Are you sure there was a tug pilot involved? How do you know this wasn't being flown by a drone operator with no aft-looking capability at some undisclosed bunker facility in Nevada?

...would whatever happen be worse than "hanging" on?

Who the fuck cares? There's ZERO excuse for a situation like this developing. And if it DOES develop your future existence is dependent upon a dice roll. This is totally incompetent fringe activity.

I also wonder if that wasn't pavement that the wing hit but grass like most of our runways would the tip have dug in and caused a hard cartwheel in.

I would certainly hope so. It might get one or two participants to start taking this shit seriously.

I also do not agree with the premise that the tug pilot is always right...

INFIDEL!!!

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Carful who you put stock in mate.
Calling blindrodie a fool? Seriously? Easily discounted?
You may not have an understanding of who you're brushing off... In lieu of some people that have been listening to the rantings of, I kid you not, a convicted pedophile. I'm willing to look past the messenger... To a point. But gimme a break... You're blowing off a tug pilot instead?

May you rot in hell for all eternity!

...and if he didn't release he must know what he's doing...

Of course he does. He's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit. Isn't it blindingly obvious to you as you're watching the video clip?

...aviation is by its nature dangerous...

Since when did hang glider aerotowing start falling under the definition of aviation?

...and being overly cautious is the ticket to longevity.

Look how old these two motherfuckers are. They're obviously being overly cautious all the time. That wasn't blindingly obvious to you watching this video?

I know I've been given the rope and never questioned the wisdom of that action.

And a lot of those who have didn't have the luxury of questioning it for more than a couple seconds or so.

If in doubt err on the side of safety.

And that's invariably done by aborting the tow, right?

It's stupid to talk about what should or shouldn't have been done on this one. It's total fringe activity. Tell us why Davis isn't shifted hard to port at this:

11-0506


point.

Ben Reese - 2019/08/16 17:45:57 UTC

He was not on grass.. Different surface, so speculating as if it was grass is bleacher talk..

Yeah, total trash. Major waste of time discussing variations on this scenario. Just use the video as the textbook technique for pulling off a totally successful AT launch.

Releasing at that acute angle would have likely resulted in a crash and cartwheel on pavement and worse on grass..

Yeah, when you've got a choice on your cartwheel always go for the pavement. WAY safer - obviously.

He was on his way out of it as the video shows...

Also his entire posting history from the beginning of time on.

...so keeping the rope was right...

See? Total textbook.

The wing dipping 1st to left and then to right is wake turbulence from tug..

Of course it is. Happens all the fuckin' time. Tons of videos. 'Specially in mild ninety crosses.

If Davis got airborne before the tug and just 5-8' higher sooner, all that turbulence mostly passes under in ground effect.

Got a list of aeronautical terms ready to pull outta your ass so you can pretend to be intelligent in this conversations? "Cavitation" up there somewhere?

It's obvious once he got 8-10' he was out of it..

Before that it was total hell. It's amazing we have as many people surviving AT launches as we do.

Just a few sec less cart time is all he needed to have a clean getaway...

Maybe a functional brain for a bit extra margin.

The greatest wake turbulence is just as the tug breaks ground and starts the climb. That turbulence is trapped in ground effect and far worse for the HG at the point Davis enters it.. Get to high tow position and come back down after tug is 20' in the air... The turbulence is forced down under wings as altitude increases..

It's the same for sailplanes being towed..

Yeah, they're all hanging on by threads all the time too. If only we were able to go up behind tugs that didn't generate thrust. Maybe use other gliders.

The glider gets airborne long before the towplane. I would not recommend wake flying on tow in a HG but we practice that in Sailplanes so we recognize it compared to normal turbulence...

Yeah, we should practice flying way the fuck below the tug too in order that we'd be able to recognize wake turbulence and learn to avoid flying way the fuck below the tug. Maybe fly into powerlines a few times until that message properly sinks in. (Trisa, any thoughts?)

Go get some tow time in a sailplane and explore the dynamics of wake turbulence.

Go fuck yourself, Ben.

It will be safer and teach you allot about what is happening......

The stuff nobody ever gets in the course of qualifying for his AT rating.

Update:
Just before posting this I looked at the video 1 more time.. I looks like Davis was delayed by the wake turbulence getting airborne and the tug rushed into the air faster than usual..

Go figure. Keep up the great work, Ben. Maybe get the SOPs properly updated.

Anyone else feel this evident in the video? The tug should make a gradual transition so the glider can manage to get clear and above..

Yeah, the tug kinda screwed this one up bigtime. Any comment, Bobby?

Bart Weghorst wrote:Lower body is resting on the right side of the cart.

I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason for that - one way too complex for any of us stupid muppets would understand.

I'm going with it's his one leg in, one leg out prep for inconveniences. Note quasi-upright position. On grass (normally barefoot) let the harness drag with toes and knees close to it.

Dragging on pavement is more serious.