Kite Strings

Been doing a massive amount of housekeeping this past week with the primary objectives of backing up / archiving, organizing, cataloging images and restoring same for broken links. Just stumbled upon:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post9429.html#p9429

Tad Eareckson - 2016/05/28 05:53:59 UTC

Product at the above struggle of a discussion which Davis and his pet cocksuckers did their best to sabotage at every ghost of an opportunity:

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7054/27224227631_dece484263_o.jpg




Not elegant but I one hundred percent guarantee you that if Jeff had been so equipped last Saturday afternoon he'd have come out smelling like a rose and it would've been a later launcher equipped by Quavis who would've ended the flying day and made the news.

Gawd! What was I thinking and smoking when I wrote that?! This is fair approximation of a Shane Smith...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post57.html#p57


...configuration. Trying to feed a thick cord final multi-string loop through the ultra-thin cord loop of the standard focal point of a safe aerotowing system. That's effectively a directly loaded three-string release when you're looking at towline tension step-down and could EASILY lock.

THIS:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8305333309/


is the proper way to implement that concept - 'cept, as we've discussed, it needs to be a three-string as the four steps down so much that it can hold under normal towline tension. But if one wanted to do a fix on Craig Stanley's version you'd need to configure with a half loaded weak link close to a thick bridle apex on the other (left) side or a fully loaded weak link between the towline and tow ring.

Kinda disappointing to have somebody that interested in flying with a sane system yet so clueless on the fundamental engineering/mechanics.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post9878.html#p9878

Nice catch, Brian.

http://flyhighhg.com
Fly High Hang Gliding

http://flyhighhg.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/G0017000f.jpg

Local Aero-towing in Middletown, NY

http://flyhighhg.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/G0020205f.jpg

A Florida flying shot....(Paul Voight)

And Quest - obviously.

So that's two asshole AT operations at which that kinda lunacy is a perfectly acceptable SOP option.

It's a pretty good bet that Industry players DELIBERATELY pull stupid dangerous crap when the chances of getting seriously bit are around one in fifty thousand. Getting as much crap into circulation as possible makes it difficult for recreational pilots to ping in on solid procedures to any significant extent. And so when a Kelly Harrison does a murder/suicide with an eleven year old kid u$hPa can get away with its complicity by reporting that all the procedures and equipment were "TYPICAL".

Nice catch, Brian.

Thanks, but I don't deserve the credit. Steve pointed one of them out to me during an earlier thread and I posted links to both of them there. Although I can say I'm much more likely to catch the same in the future thanks to what I've learned here from you, Steve and Mike.
http://www.kitestrings.org/post164.html#p164

MikeLake wrote:...Towing from the top line only is an unbelievably dangerous situation, transferring to this mode due to some bottom line failure or hook up is likely to be even more dangerous.

When off the tow my 30 year old 2 point setup allowed for the belly cord to be disconnected so the rest of the contraption would wind up against the keel. I had a system in place where if this accidentally happened during the tow the line would automatically release.
(Note: This is not because I'm a brilliant designer or innovator or anything else. I watched someone tuck, didn't like what I saw, didn't want that happening to me, so I implemented a solution, simple.)
During my 23 year absence this 2 point setup (remnants of which are still in use today) morphed into something else and this safety feature was forgotten, abandoned or not understood.
I know of one fatality that I am sure would not have happened had that safety feature been in place. (*more on this).

I was fairly well stunned with the recent exchange at OZ speculating as to the likely outcome of this bottom line failure/hook-up.
No need to speculate all been done, tested and people killed or injured.
You would think with global commutations and a 30+ year history these lessons would by now all be common knowledge.
I really did attempt to get some sort of information exchange going to share this type of basic stuff.

*A knot came undone on the belly cord so all the load was suddenly transferred to the keel. THE KEEL FAILED and the pilot was killed.
A maintained, certified, 6g, 5th generation glider!
Readers! Where is the top attachment point on your set-up anything OUTSIDE of the sleeved area?

Nice catch, Steve.

Yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=35020
3 point "pro tow" release

That was while I was in T&T. I'd given it a skim but it never got well wired into what I have left in the way of a brain.

- I was in major bird mode with glider stuff on a back burner.

- If I don't spend time and effort working on threads they tend to fade a lot more easily. (Duh.)

- I'm pretty burnt out on a culture too fucking stupid to consider any possibility of a cheap shit Industry excuse for a bridle failing to clear a tow ring after an end pops free under four hundred pounds of towline tension.

And, again, thanks for all the contributions, finds, checks, corrections, effort. There's never in the entire history of hang gliding been another platform like Kite Strings - competent, solid across the board - and probably never will be again. I keep an eye on the activity and it's obviously a home for at least three individuals, probably more, and knowing that is a huge morale booster for Yours Truly at least.

I so totally dig those two photos of idiot Voight dragging a ten foot secondary bridle though the air while smiling for the camera like he's some kind of hot-shot. Fucking priceless!

Tad Eareckson wrote:...and knowing that is a huge morale booster for Yours Truly at least...

Right back atcha.

Steve Davy wrote:Fucking priceless!

Yeah, the epitome of safety.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2808
Weaklink Break

Davis Straub - 2006/06/15 12:46:29 UTC

The tug's weaklink breaks as I come off the cart.

http://ozreport.com/10.116#3

On the second day of the ECC competition just as I came off the cart the tow line went slack when it came detached from the tug (but not from me). You can see what happened then as Jim Rooney filmed it. You can find the results on video here. Or even better in the key frames here

Flying a foot or so off the ground on the base tube pushing out was pretty interesting, all with a good ending.

Davis Straub
http://ozreport.com
http://ozreport.com/worldrecordholder.php

The tug's weaklink breaks...

How do you know? How do you know the:
- tug driver didn't fix whatever was going on back there by giving you the rope?
- front end:
-- bridle didn't increase the safety of the towing operation?
-- of the towline didn't disintegrate and precipitate the inconvenience?

On the second day of the ECC competition...

...2006/06/05 - with four days left until the end of the comp and ten days prior to this post...

...just as I came off the cart the tow line went slack...

Whoa! Total loss of thrust just coming off the cart.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Pretty ugly feeling - I'd imagine.

...when it came detached from the tug...

Wow. And u$hPa less than three months ago...

http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1
USHPA - Safety Advisory #1

USHGA - 2006/03/15

Should the tandem glider become unattached from the tug...

David G. Broyles, Chairman of Safety and Training Committee
Steve Kroop, Chairman of Tow Committee
Paul Voight, Chairman of Tandem Committee

...had a safety advisory on that very issue in response to an inconvenience precipitated double fatal at Hang Glide Chicago on 2005/09/03. Good thing you're bringing this up for discussion now to increase awareness of this issue.

...(but not from me).

Why not? What was STOPPING YOU from subsequently detaching it from your end?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC

I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.

In other words, on the occasions in which it would be important to release using the cheap bent pin shit you fly with, sell, mandate for use at u$hPa comps...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...you might as well be using a combination padlock as your primary release. Reminds me of the hundreds of flights Rafi Lavin had skipping his stomp tests or the hundreds of flights Joe Julik had going upright on final with no problem.

You can see what happened then as Jim Rooney filmed it.

Any chance we can see the video Jim Rooney's wing camera was filming while he was trying to climb back up into his control frame after launching his 2006/02/21 tandem thrill ride at Coronet Peak with only his passenger hooked in?

You can find the results on video here.

No we can't.

Flying a foot or so off the ground on the base tube pushing out was pretty interesting...

Yeah, that sounds really INTERESTING. And I just love INTERESTING flying just off the cart. I find it really odd that nobody ever ELECTS to do this kind of flying and nobody runs clinics...

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2016/10/22
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11 Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice and above (H2-H5).
05. Aerotow (AT)

-f. Must demonstrate the ability to control the glider position within the "cone of safety" behind the aerotow vehicle. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

...in order for pilots to master the relevant skills.

...all with a good ending.

So you're saying that this good ending was something of pleasant surprise / stroke of luck, right?

Notice, people of varying ages, the conspicuous total absence of any hint of a mention anywhere in the thread of the issue of having 250 feet of two thousand pound Spectra...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...draped over one's basetube. Anybody having any trouble understanding why?

Acmeaviator - 2006/06/16 14:02:47 UTC

You the MAN! I like to think that I would react as smoothly and skillfully were I in that situation - truthfully I'd have most likely pounded in hard

What's the big fucking deal, Aviator? This sorta thing is a mere inconvenience that any halfway competent Two should be able to handle in his sleep.

Davis Straub - 2006/06/16 14:21:28 UTC

As soon as I saw that the rope was slack I pushed out because I assumed that I was going to go sliding in on my skids on the base tube. I've done this before.

And you've had hundreds of flights in which you've had no problem getting off tow with the cheap bent pin shit you use a release.

This turned out to be the right thing to do as it was also a flare as I had plenty of speed coming off the cart and it was just enough speed with just enough flare to get up on the downtubes and run it in.

So you got...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.

...LUCKY, right? And in this instance:

http://ozreport.com/16.024
Upcoming shoulder surgery

Davis Straub - 2012/02/01 16:49:54 UTC
Cathedral City, California

I experienced a full tear of the tendon on September 22nd at the Santa Cruz Flats Race after I tripped while running out a landing on the third to last day.

you DIDN'T - despite the advantage of having had the benefits of being in a totally benign situation coming in for a normal with tons of setup time.

David Giles - 2006/06/16 15:20:02 UTC

Nice quick reflexes Davis!

- Yeah, truly masterful.
- And now YOU suck HIS dick, Davis.

This past weekend I had almost the exact same thing happen to me at Lookout, except that it was MY weaklink that broke coming off the cart.

- Wow! A serious incident like that and it didn't merit a sixteen post Davis Show thread? How come?
- What was wrong with it? Third tow without having replaced it so it was no longer up to factory specs?

I didn't feel like I could get upright in my harness fast enough...

Nah, you obviously wouldn't have the lightning quick reflexes of a Davis Straub.

...to pull off a flare (fairly new harness for me), so I just slid in on my belly.

What? You were landing in an area that didn't have large rocks strewn all over the place?

Not as pretty as your landing, but fortunately the ATOS slides in on the basetube quite nicely when the ground is reasonably smooth.

Something that almost never happens in hang gliding. Consider yourself extremely lucky.

David Giles - 2006/06/16 20:26:15 UTC

If you get the right frame, you can actually see the tow rope going slack, but still hanging in the air:

Christian Williams - 2006/06/16 20:33:53 UTC

What was the probable cause of the weaklink break?

Probably wasn't tied with the knot properly hidden from the main tension in the loop.

Bart Weghorst - 2006/06/16 20:49:25 UTC

Tug pilots pitch their prop for maximum thrust at towing speeds.
So when the tug gets close to the speed at which it normally climbs out, the prop suddenly becomes much more effective.

And there's NOTHING that blows hang gliding aerotow weak links like effective takeoff power. That stuff is nothing to mess around with.

This is when the accelleration is at it's maximum.
Unfortunately that's also when the glider just comes out of the cart.

Goddam right. Really gotta watch out for that instantaneous increase in the safety of the towing operation.

It is good skill if you can pull off a good landing at that time.
Think about it:
You're in the propwash, in groud effect and possibly also up several feet in the windgradient.

Let's take a look at the groud effect. Your wing flies more efficiently in groud effect and thus generates less drag / lessens towline tension. Tell me how that's an issue that should be included in your list.

Feet in the harness, sometimes VG on and some have no wheels.

But wheels or effective skids have never been considered in AT operations risk mitigation programs. Why do you think that is?

Good flying!

Really?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

So if that miserable little cocksucker is right then how come nobody ever remarks about the excellent flying involved in staying centered behind the tug for the first fifty feet of climbout?

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 02:32:58 UTC

The bridle may have just come undone. Don't really know if the weaklink broke or not.

So then how come you posted:

Davis Straub - 2006/06/15 12:46:29 UTC

The tug's weaklink breaks as I come off the cart.

I was the first tow of the day for this tug.

Who was the second tow and how come we didn't get a report?

Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 04:50:39 UTC

I spoke to the tug pilot that towed you and asked him about the weeklink break he said it was not the weeklink but the tow line it had been tied and came untied this was not the tow pilots tow line and not his equipment that failed as you led me to believe in your original post /story about the incident when you said you asked for a different tug the next flight. for give me if this was not your intention and Irelise you were not aware of the cause at the time. But the tug pilot in question is very careful with his equipment and takes very good care of it the tug is one of the oldest tugs flyimg if not the oldest with the original engine. though it doesn't have the hours that many have because it is not used at a tow park

I spoke to the tug pilot...

So why aren't you NAMING the tug pilot? (Notice, people of varying ages, the way identities of tug drivers are all kept under tighter wraps than snitches in witness protection programs. (And like what do we know about the identity and/or qualifications of the driver...

KSNV-CNN-1-1916c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png

2-2911
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/14022629055_b87e14eb3f_o.png

22-13529
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8823/17050092637_a6b3bc79a4_o.png


...in the most spectacular double fatal in the entire world history of hang gliding?) Why all this secrecy given that:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

...this was not the tow pilots tow line and not his equipment that failed...

Yeah it was. He was the Pilot In Command of everything back to and including the tow ring (and the glider too - if you listen to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney). And it was his responsibility to fly in compliance with FAA aerotowing regulations - regardless of who owned that crap on the ground. And he blew it and his negligence could've gotten somebody killed in a worst case scenario. (Not to say that the dickhead who hooked that shit up shouldn't have been beaten to a bloody pulp.)

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 12:43:23 UTC

he said it was not the weeklink but the tow line it had been tied and came untied this was not the tow pilots tow line

I don't understand the sentence above.

Really? I don't know what three point bridles and carabineers are.

I towed behind this tug later. No worries.

Yeah? Well this is what you wrote ORIGINALLY at:

http://ozreport.com/10.116
Weaklink Break

Bo was off first and I was a pilot or two behind him. Just as I came off the cart the rope detached from the tow plane (not one of the regular Dragonflys) and I was floating along one foot off the ground. It felt to me that I was in for a skidder. Then suddenly I popped up a couple of feet (prop wash?) and I could get up on the down tubes and run it in. I told them to give me any other tug, but that one.

Let's not address the problem. Let's just make sure we don't get behind him and let other flyers - possibly totally unaware of the incident - be exposed to the danger, risk getting an arm broken, gum up the launch lines a bit more.

When you have something like this happen to you, the first thing you want to avoid is it happening again, no matter what the actual or proximate cause.

Right. Avoid it happening again to YOU - with your superb flying skills, lightning fast reflexes, successful experience dealing with the situation. Fuck everybody else. Besides, the more gliders that get broken and/or injured during the comp the easier it is to get into first place.

Avoiding that tug for a while seemed prudent.

And what would've seemed prudent to a NON pigfucker would've been to identify the problem, fix it, call a short meeting to make sure people were properly clued in and alert to the issue.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

Liar.

I wonder who was responsible for the tow line coming undone.

Still wondering. Blamed the tug driver, didn't bother to see if any Ridgely staffers shared the responsibility and that any other tugs might be problematic.

P.S. Note that none of the Ridgely staffers have engaged in the discussion three minutes and six seconds shy of two days into this discussion.

Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 13:56:40 UTC

the tow line was provided by the tow park apparently it had been cut or broken previously and had been tied don't know who tied it

Great job...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

...Highland Aerosports.

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 14:24:18 UTC

Communication, what a difficult art. [/img]
The tow line was provided by the tow park. Apparently it had been cut or broken previously and had been tied. I don't know who tied it.
I assume that you meant that the tow line had been "spliced" and that the splice had come undone.

What was stopping you from finding out at the time?

Craig Williamson - 2006/06/17 14:33:50 UTC

I would have spliced the tug pilot would have spliced he said tied not sure if he meant spliced and not sure who reconected it

How convenient.

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 15:15:56 UTC

thanksagainshowingthedifficultyofcommunication
especiallywithoutpunctuationorcapitalization
dontmeantoberudebutiwasjusthavingahardtimefollowingwhatyouweresaying

That'sOK,Davis.LotsatimesittakesYEARStoreallyundestand...

http://ozreport.com/9.033
Why weaklinks?

Davis Straub - 2005/02/08

Competition pilots are driven to use strong links because breaking a weaklink causes them to go to the back of the line as well as the problems that come with broken weaklinks low. If we want to use weaklinks, we need to be sure that we are not penalized if our weaklink breaks.

...whatyou'resaying.

Jim Rooney - 2006/06/18 14:31:22 UTC

The tow line was two pieces of spectra spliced together. The splice didn't hold and the line seperated.

Great craftsmanship. Commensurate with your spelling proficiency.

If you're curious or unfamiliar with the types of splices used...

...you'll be welcome with open arms as a Highland Aerosports staffer.

...check out your bridal ends... the loops are formed by a splice. Normally splices involve a twisting weave to ensure the splice holds.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

There was question as to how much weave was used and how close of a weave, etc.

Why was that ever a question? These lines are commonly used in life-or-death applications and there's never been a shortage of detailed illustrated instructions for bulletproof application on manufacturers' websites.

They either switched out the line or knotted the line after it failed... probably both.

Maybe set fire to a bit of it. Who really knows for sure?

It was impressive to watch quick reactions have such a positive outcome... nice work Davis.

Suck my dick, you miserable little Industry scumbag.

Hang Gliding - 1975/09

The Tow Line
Harry Robb

Polyethylene or polypropylene, 12 strand, braided 3/8 inch line, 500 feet in length is used in competition. Lines for novice flyers should be about 150 feet long, and increased in length as experience is gained. According to the Kiting Handbook (Manned Kiting) by Dan Poynter, this size line has a tensile strength of 2025 pounds. Each end of the tow line is normally provided with a stainless steel screw-pin shackle with an approximate 3/16 inch shank which fits in the slot of the safety release hook. The screw pin of the shackle is inserted through a loop of the tow line at least 2 or 3 feet, providing sufficient friction to prevent disengagement. Although some flyers use only the loop of the tow line in the safety release, this practice is not recommended as it greatly accelerates the abrasion and fraying of the line. Once the line shows very many single strand breaks, its tensile strength is greatly decreased and should be discarded. No flight should ever be made with a knot in the tow line. Aside from the abrasion caused by the knot rubbing on itself, the tensile strength is decreased by as much as 50%. Lines require constant inspection - prior to the first flight of every day by every flyer. In a tournament, the Lineman Starter can inspect some portions of the line on each flight, and the Safety Inspector will inspect the entire line slowly, foot-by-foot, two or three times daily. The tow line is a life line and must be treated with utmost respect.

Look how far backwards u$hPa managed to go the forty years between that article and the extinction of Highland Aerosports at the end of the 2015 season. Decades of systematic persecution of accountability, competence, character where and when ever they reared their ugly heads.

All that hue and cry over an inconvenience emergency that would’ve been lost in the noise of untold thousands of similar "nonincidents" at that douchebag operation if it had been due to the vaporization of a Davis Link. And then remember this?:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Brad Gryder - 2011/08/25 00:04:50 UTC

But in actual practice, especially at a busy flight park, the tug monkey has limited time to maintain his "Master" weak link at 100%, so it will degrade in strength until he finds time to replace it. Same is true for the busy tandem monkey, so it's a statistical game as to when the tug's weak link might eventually fail before the gilder's.

The rear monkey, keen on survival, is aware of this and is ready to accept it (the rope) when it happens.

The Tug Pilot is responsible for his weak link and must manage it accordingly. Same for the other end. They both must be prepared for the worst while hoping for better.

It would be absurd to expect a tug driver to be able to maintain his end in anything approaching legal configuration. Not a peep's worth of condemnation from the mainstream.

And watch this sequence...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Aerotow FAQ

Quest Air Hang Gliding

Weak Link

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

The Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey standard aerotow weak link will break BEFORE the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider. And the Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey standard tandem aerotow weak link, equivalent to:

02-00820c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7252/27169646315_9af9a62298_o.png


...is based on the solo such that the maximum towline pressure can't reach a level that compromises the handling of one of those birds...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...either.

And the idiot Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey tow mast breakaway...

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly

USAFlytec - 2001/07/14

Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen

The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

...is designed to break at the same load/time as the excessive tandem weak link load they've previously defined as not excessive.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.

Yet in the only instance for which we have documentation of "it happening" - 2002/08/17 Fort Langley - we never heard a single peep about the implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath of the Dragonfly prior to its "passengers" - William Woloshyniuk and Victor Cox - being safely dumped into a harmless fatal inconvenience stall. Never in the intense over quarter century history of Dragonfly aerotowing have we heard about single instance of a Dragonfly being the least bit endangered by an out-of-position glider. In fact the most recent Dragonfly kill occurred BECAUSE...

http://www.myrepublica.com/news/9714
My Republica - Seti flashflood alert pilot dies in Ultralight crash

Santosh Pokharel - 2016/11/23 20:20

"Preliminary investigation shows that the ultra-light aircraft lost its balance and crashed after a rope tied to a hang-glider snapped while being pulled by the aircraft,” informed Inspector Mohanmani Adhikari of Baidam Police Post, adding that massive amount of blood loss due to head injury ultimately led to the death of the pilot.

...the weak link increased the safety of the towing operation and upset the balance of the tug.



Everything else has been power failure on takeoff, crap piloting, and known and unidentified control linkage failure.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.

Yet here we have Davis...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Naw.
Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
I'll put money that he's using that new orange stuff like what they've got up at Morningside.

...Dead-On Straub employing his unparalleled skill and lightning reflexes to avoid smashing into the earth as a consequence of an inconvenience incident and basking in the glow of admiration from all the run-of-the-mill skygods - not to mention:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2808
Weaklink Break

Jim Rooney - 2006/06/18 14:31:22 UTC

It was impressive to watch quick reactions have such a positive outcome... nice work Davis.

Even Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was impressed by his cheating of the Grim Reaper on this one.

Davis Straub - 2006/06/17 12:43:23 UTC

When you have something like this happen to you, the first thing you want to avoid is it happening again, no matter what the actual or proximate cause. Avoiding that tug for a while seemed prudent.

Yeah Davis. Once you've had something like that HAPPEN TO YOU the important thing is to immediately transfer the risk...

Ben Carson - 2015/10/07

Guy comes in, put the gun in my ribs. And I just said, 'I believe that you want the guy behind the counter.'

...to a bunch of useless muppets long enough to be satisfied that the problem's been adequately remedied.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the Oz Report with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

But in the REAL world the Flight Park Mafia operatives put the muppets up on the chintziest available tow systems.

And in a sane world if we were forced to distribute light and heavy weak links between pilots of a range of skill levels we'd put the Davis Links on the best of the best and the Tad-O-Links on the worst of the worst 'cause the skygods are gonna be better at staying smoothly in position / minimizing tension fluctuations and responding to inconvenience crises WHEN they occur.

Fer instance...

Jonathan...

13-02819
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2907/14605946141_8443210741_o.png


...even on a wheelless, skidless bladewing...

14-03123
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5154/14422541620_a48c55b758_o.png


...winds up a bit dusty...

18-03625
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3856/14607143664_5003d2e987_o.png


...but otherwise smelling like a fuckin' rose...

20-03829
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2928/14422781117_a4a3b72ee6_o.png


...and gets back to the head of the line and on the cart...

21-04709
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3885/14422571978_d47ec5c921_o.png


...to do the same launch with the same pro toad equipment in the same conditions hoping for...

33-10627
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2901/14607133284_c62e2ac8de_o.png


...and actually getting better results.

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Bryan, on the other hand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


...ends up with an arm broken into four pieces and an abruptly and permanently terminated hang gliding career.

Case fuckin' closed.

Decades of systematic persecution of accountability, competence, character where and when ever they reared their ugly heads.

Reminds me of this:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34390
Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

Davis Straub - 2016/05/27 20:56:16 UTC

Actually in aerotow competition we have standardized on a thin spectra protow bridle with a barrel release and a weaklink at the other end.

Having been at this for thirty years I've been in a position to influence that standardization.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=35266
scooter towing, tension gauge-- when is it required?

Steve Seibel - 2017/04/15 13:28:50 UTC

I'm wondering whether some friends of mine are being a little slack in their attitudes around scooter towing.

If they're friends of yours the answer would be a resounding YES. It's impossible to teach hang gliding safely without identifying the sport's major dangerous douchebags.

They say they've watched the Blue Sky video about how to scooter tow.

Infallible Weak Links, easily reachable releases, hands on the control tubes at shoulder or ear height at all times when not engaged in easily reaching the release, never under any circumstances perform anything with any semblance to a hook-in check just prior to launch...

They feel that a tension gauge is not necessarily required--

How many aerotows do you estimate are conducted each year using a tension gauge?

...the tow operator just watches the glider, and also listens to the glider pilot's radio requests, and adjusts the throttle accordingly.

Kinda like the way a Cessna pilot controls the power for the plane in which he's flying?

But they also have stories about being dragged a long way over the ground without being able to climb into flight.

Also without the "Pilot In Command" having any practical means of aborting the tow. Helps a lot getting them into the mindset of Western hang gliding.

(They don't use a turnaround pulley, so the scooter operator couldn't see what was happening).

And given the crap you fly you're totally on board with that dope on a rope strategy.

But I'm less concerned about...

...anything that actually matters.

...that than the opposite-- too much tow pressure.

Doesn't the towline tend to bend a lot before the pressure can start getting excessive? Dickhead.

I'm impressed with the whole low-and-slow, low-powered winch thing as a training tool.

Me too. Just not in the same way you are.

But if you are towing with the intention of getting the pilot to a significant altitude, what would be a guideline as to the maximum scooter horsepower/ engine size where it's reasonable to tow with a bare-bones setup with no tension gauge?

Sounds nuts to me. One should ALWAYS carefully monitor the tension gauge...

022-04610
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/13746340634_a74b33d285_o.png


...to ensure the tow is being conducted within safe margins.

These folks are not in a training sort of mode and sooner or later I think there's going to be a temptation to try to maximize the climb.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

Perish the thought.

Maybe the best guidance is, if you are towing without a tension gauge, you need to keep the climb rate low (flight path aimed not too steeply skyward)? If you keep this foremost in mind is it ok to use a powerful winch without a tension gauge?

Dare I suggest using ten year old kid kite flying common sense? Just kidding.

With no turnaround pulley, is the winch operator really in a position to judge the climb angle?

Why not? With the easily reachable release he's the only one in a position to judge whether the tow should be continued or aborted (other than the Infallible Weak Link, of course).

Is it reasonable for the scooter operator to rely on radio commands from the pilot?

Is it reasonable for ANYBODY to send ANYONE (a commercial airline / Hang 4 comp pilot - for instance) up on total shit equipment under ANY circumstances?

PS my friends do use weak links.

For what purposes?



Can you think of any more abrupt way to cut what the operator has determined to be max safe towline tension? And what are you predicting is likely to happen to the glider as a consequence of that...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Donnell Hewett - 1985/08

THE SKYTING CRITERIA
2. CONSTANT TENSION
The tension in the towline must remain essentially constant throughout every phase of the towed flight.
5. GRADUAL TRANSITIONS
The transition to and from tow as well as any variations while on tow must be gradual in nature.

...violation of the most fundamental of hang glider towing principles?

I'm not sure how often they break them--

Probably only on occasions when the towline tension climbs to the point at which a lockout can occur - approximately 1.0 Gs.

...really I think they are just getting started in their operation so the sample size of tows attempted is still small.

They should get together with US Hang Gliding, Inc. and pool their data.

PPS I'm actually talking about two different groups of folks here.

For the purpose of the exercise your pretty much talking about all of them.

The practice of towing without a tension gauge may be relatively common based on what I'm hearing. Or not-- ??

Hear any good data from Mission on the 2016/04/03 Nancy Tachibana incident? A year plus a dozen days ago?

Thanks for your comments

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Steve Seibel - 2012/08/18 16:22:36 UTC

Based on my cumulative experience so far I would opt for a SLIGHTLY weaker weak link (those loads got alarmingly high!).

Dickhead.